How/why is Christianity a monotheism?

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Hmm, not sure I go with that interpretation. Also, v2 of Psalm 82 makes no mention of the fact that it refers to people, and even if we take it as read that it does, then the implication is that god is speaking directly to those folks, that he "holds council" with them, etc.

(Sorry, in a bit of a rush, will offer a better thought out disagreement tomorrow. )

--A

[nuk]

Vector's been stating my POV on this topic at least as well as I could, so I've no need to add to the discussion of "is Christianity monotheistic?"

But perhaps Lord Mhoram or another Christian could answer the question of why this is an important issue? Personally, it would seem a lot easier to me, given the trinity, to say it's at least tri-theistic. Why the need to stick to monotheism?

[Plissken]

Ooh! Ooh! I know! Is it because by Christ's time, the Jews who had won the debate over the Jews who believed in a Goddess figure, as well as those who had argued that everybody's gods had positions in the cosmos, and stripped the existing OT of any references that disagreed with them? And then, after Jesus began preaching this philosophy that there was one one God in heaven (but that we were all His sons and daughters), he got killed, and then, years later, this other guy got ahold of what Jesus had been saying and added all this poly-theistic stuff to the story?

Was that it?

[Cybrweez]

The Trinity is not 3 different gods, therefore, that doesn't affect whether its mono or poly. Its 3 different aspects. I don't know how important it is, people can believe whatever they want. Maybe its important to those who care about what words mean.

Edit: to repeat Mhoram earlier, poly is worship/belief in more than one god. Christianity, like Judaism, believes that you should worship no other god but the God of the Bible. Its the first commandment. Therefore, by definition, its monotheistic. Its quite simple.

[Vector]

Christianity, like Judaism, believes that you should worship no other god but the God of the Bible. Its the first commandment. Therefore, by definition, its monotheistic. Its quite simple.

You have hit on one of the points which I have considered with some amusement. I tend to think this is exactly why Christianity calls itself monotheistic - because it is a commandment that it should be so, not because in practice it really is one.

It seems it could be construed as a case of wanting to have it both ways. Like I said earlier, I feel it the practice and beliefs of the populace that defines what the religion is, not the degrees of the official theologians.

[Lord Mhoram]

nuk,

But perhaps Lord Mhoram or another Christian could answer the question of why this is an important issue? Personally, it would seem a lot easier to me, given the trinity, to say it's at least tri-theistic. Why the need to stick to monotheism?

Simply because it is not a monotheism.

Vector,

You have hit on one of the points which I have considered with some amusement. I tend to think this is exactly why Christianity calls itself monotheistic - because it is a commandment that it should be so, not because in practice it really is one.

Care to elaborate on that? How do you think Christianity is a polytheism?

[Vector]

Vector,

You have hit on one of the points which I have considered with some amusement. I tend to think this is exactly why Christianity calls itself monotheistic - because it is a commandment that it should be so, not because in practice it really is one.

Care to elaborate on that? How do you think Christianity is a polytheism?

Well, relating back to our earlier discussion, I believe it is in the eyes of the beholder/worshipper - clearly if one accepts that the various agents of Christianity are simply facets of the one true God (or taken a step further, that all entities in all religions are facets of the one true god), then clearly one is being monotheistic.

However, though Christianity claims it is monotheistic, yet at the same time it cultivates a pantheon of semi-divine entities - this is going to lead to some adherents of the religion to perceive of those various entites as being independent - thus perceiving a polytheistic pantheon.

Since Christianity claims one status (monotheism) and yet cultivates the other in its trappings (saints,angels,satan, the trinity), it seems to me that despite the rationalizations to the contrary, it is trying to have it both ways - the rationalizations have the purpose of declaring that underneath it all, Christianity is a monotheism - and thus they are in accordance with the first commandment,

I hope this was clear

[Lord Mhoram]

Vector,

Okay I understand.

I see how people can think that it is a polytheism. But the reality is that it is not: Saints, as I said before, are perceived as "demi-gods" but that is just ignorant. Angels and and devils are not really gods at all. Satan is simply an ex-angel.

The only real Christian entity that you can even make an argument for polytheism for is the Trinity. But Christianity dictates the following: God is existence, so everything exists in God. There are no room for other gods; Christ is the Son of God. The Holy Spirit, according to newadvent.org is

# The Holy Ghost is the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity.
# Though really distinct, as a Person, from the Father and the Son, He is consubstantial with Them; being God like Them, He possesses with Them one and the same Divine Essence or Nature.
# He proceeds, not by way of generation, but by way of spiration, from the Father and the Son together, as from a single principle.

It is a "Myster" as the Church calls it, yet it does make a certain amount of sense.

[Vector]

Lord Mhoram,

I am just curious, in your mind are Satan and Christ independent entities from God ? Or are they aspects of Him ?

[Lord Mhoram]

Vector,

I believe Christ is an aspect of God.

As for Satan, I don't really understand Satan and the concept of him. Personally, I don't believe in him at all. But technically, he is an angel who was made innocent but became evil by his own volition.

I suppose this is an example of your theory about theological dogma differing from personal beliefs.

God is existence and God is good. Therefore, Satan cannot be an aspect of God.

[dennisrwood]

www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

"Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God."

why is this an argument? it's rather straightforward.

www.newadvent.org/cathen/04764a.htm
God created the angels. again not much room for argument there.

[Lord Mhoram]

dennis,

Yes I have already explained that.

Yet just as clear is that fact that it's easy to misinterpret this. The Holy Trinity is a Mystery, right? So of course there will be confusion.

[Plissken]

Vector,

I believe Christ is an aspect of God.

As for Satan, I don't really understand Satan and the concept of him. Personally, I don't believe in him at all. But technically, he is an angel who was made innocent but became evil by his own volition.

I suppose this is an example of your theory about theological dogma differing from personal beliefs.

God is existence and God is good. Therefore, Satan cannot be an aspect of God.

So Satan is immortal, rules Hell, and is God's rival, but doesn't at least qualify as a demi-god?

Boy are Hades, Loki, and Osirus going to be pissed!

[Lord Mhoram]

Plissken,

He is immortal because he is a fallen angel. God created him. He is not "God's rival." God has no rival. God is existence. Everything exists in God.

By his very definition, everything Satan does is God's will.

[Vector]

So Satan is immortal, rules Hell, and is God's rival, but doesn't at least qualify as a demi-god?

Boy are Hades, Loki, and Osirus going to be pissed!

Yes, that is partly my point, it seems a lot of it is a question of categorization. You could say that all of these "Gods" from these other religions are on the same level as Satan, Angels, and even Saints - they certainly seem to be comparable in stature in many ways - and are perhaps not gods either, from Christianity's definition.

As Dennis says, The Angels were created by God, and therefore cannot be Gods so by Dennis's definition could not be gods. Practically the entire Greek pantheon are either children of each other or of the Titans - so by Dennis' definition, they also cannot be Gods - therefore perhaps those religions are also monotheistic - perhaps, as I say, they are the Greeks interpretation of Angels. Mind you, this is not what I believe, I am just pointing out these relationships for argumentive sake.

[Lord Mhoram]

Vector,

Practically the entire Greek pantheon are either children of each other or of the Titans - so by Dennis' definition, they also cannot be Gods - therefore perhaps those religions are also monotheistic - perhaps, as I say, they are the Greeks interpretation of Angels.

Saying because they are created by God and therefore not demi-gods is a pretty simplistic interpretation, I admit. There is more to it.

But the Greek gods had their own free will. They were gods who excericsed their own agendas, did what they wanted.

Angels serve simply as God's messengers and always exercise God's will.

There is a big difference, IMO.

[Vector]

Plissken,

He is immortal because he is a fallen angel. God created him. He is not "God's rival." God has no rival. God is existence. Everything exists in God.

By his very definition, everything Satan does is God's will.

This is also my personal religious interpretation (independent of Christianity) - that Good and Evil are both aspects of the same being - or rather, for God, there is no Good and Evil.

[Vector]

Angels serve simply as God's messengers and always exercise God's will.

Just the fact of Satan's existence with Christianity's doctrine show that this statement is not true. Is not Satan a fallen Angel that disagreed with God ? Does that not give him free will independent from God ?

[Lord Mhoram]

Vector,

Yes of course he has free will. We all have free will.

Yet, it is the Christian interpretation that while we all excericse free will, as the angels as God's creation must by their very definition also exercise (yet they serve God), we are furthering God's agenda, if you will. i.e. Devil's temptations make our faith stronger, etc.

It must be, then, God's will that Satan should exist.

[Vector]

It must be, then, God's will that Satan should exist.

Yet, if Satan is doing but God's will, then why is it said that he rebelled against God ? And why did God cast him from heaven to punish him ?