(meant as dark humor) Pandora's Box open, what comes out?

[Edelaith]

Ok, we know that ...

- Linden and Company went back in time, and brought the Staff of Law forward in time, along with some Waynhim.
- Esmer went back in time, and brought some Demondim forward in time.
- The Demondim are reaching out (through the 3 dimensions) to a caesure, and then through it (through the 4th dimension) to access the full power of the Illearth Stone.

What ELSE do you think is going to get dragged kicking and screaming into the Present?
What other sources of Power do you think someone in the present might try to access in the past?
Who will try, and for what reason? (besides the obvious)
What will be the consequences?

For example ...

It is THOUGHT that the Old Lords and all their works perished in the Ritual of Desecration, along with the people of Revelstone and (it is implied and said) a great part of the people of the Land.
But perhaps this did not happen? It was never proven, you know.
Perhaps Linden goes back in time, warns them all, and brings them forward in time? And their Earthlore with them? (that would end the current Dark Age in the Land real quick.)

[ur-bane]

Perhaps Linden goes back in time, warns them all, and brings them forward in time? And their Earthlore with them? (that would end the current Dark Age in the Land real quick.)

Ahh...Edelaith. The power of the Old Lords did not suffice in their own time. Why would it now be compelling enough to defeat Despite?

If the people of the Land live solely with hope in legend, they will never find within themseves their own answer to Despite.

Linden was not present ofr the telling of the tales...she never heard Atiaran's rendering of Lord Kevin's Lament or the relaying of the tale of Berek and the Firelions. Her reaction to dead Kevin and Covenant's dead in Andelain would seem to clarify her thoughts on the past as salvation for the future.

The only concession I see her make is the retrieval of the Staff. I think her trips to the past are done. And even if they are not, as you implied in your statement, it may be for the retrieval of an object, but I can't see Linden Avery the Chosen venturing into a history of the Land in which she did not partake to bring forward aid in the form of Old Lords and lond-dead heroes.

Let us also consider that all the so-called heroes of the Land were fundamentally flawed. The Old Lords were flawed in that their answer to Despite was Earthpower. It has been proven time and again that Earthpower, while able to temporarily hold Despite at bay, is in itself not enough to conquer Despite.

The Old Lords did not try to supplement their knowledge whatsoever. They had Kevin's lore; that was enough. They were blinded by confidence.
As far as Kevin goes...if your final solution is destroying that which you love in order to also destroy that which you hate, then you are nothing more than a Despiser yourself. Good intentions or no, the RoD should never have been uttered...at least not without a contingency plan....What if Foul survives.......perhaps he should have taken steps to try to keep Foul away from the Earthpower thereby disabling his ability to recover his strength.

But I digress. In short (too late! ) I do not think that Linden will by choice recreate the mistakes of the past by bringing those individuals responsible for them into the future.
And, every transgression into the past would further strain the Arch. White wild magic gold could then indeed damn the Earth.

[dlbpharmd]

Perhaps Linden goes back in time, warns them all, and brings them forward in time? And their Earthlore with them? (that would end the current Dark Age in the Land real quick.)

Too much like Dragonriders of Pern for me.

[drew]

Excellent post Ur-Bane!!

Really good points. I couldn't agree more-I really don't think we'll see any more time travel.

I look as the trip through time, as Thomas' deals in the first Chrons, and his use of the Wild magic in the second chrons--More harm than good--Or even more-so; her trip through the ceasure was more like Thomas raping Lena, so now that the damage is done, let's see how they fix it.

[Warmark]

let's see how they fix it.

Its obvious, they go back in time in a caesure...wait that wouldnt work.

[Edelaith]

Oh, I agree with you, ur-bane. And you, drew.
Linden committed a great evil in travelling back through time, and she even perceived that evil as she was doing it.
Our author has, in the gradual interview, said that rape is a good metaphor for evil, and I tend to agree.
This speaks extremely badly for Linden, of course. She violated time, probably weakened the arch of time further, and she committed a rape of time, and she did this knowingly and willingly.
I find it difficult to believe there won't be terrible consequences personally for Linden. SRD simply doesn't allow his characters to commit such acts without punishment. (well, he doesn't!)

Earthpower is not an answer to Despite. Ur-bane, you have the right of it. That's been proven time and again.
I would argue the Ritual of Desecration should not have been cast, period. A complete victory of the Despiser over the Land was preferable. Obviously, Linden cannot bring Kevin forward in time (fortunately) since he is known to have died. His final fate is a given.
And yes, every new trip taken back in time by Linden - if any - would be another violation, another rape, and the consequences for Linden personally would multiply, and the chance of time crumbling altogether would increase.

(sighs)

I meant this only as dark humor.
Imagine if going back in time was not a rape of time, not an atrocity.
Imagine that time would not be endangered, and perhaps fail completely from such violations (although it could still fall if casuality was disrupted.)
And imagine that Lindens' judgement is much worse than it actually is.
Also consider the possibility of the Demondim jumping on Esmers bandwagon, and trying to bring something forward on their own.

Just for laughs, what happens?

[Gofer]

In answer to Edelaith's:

'A complete victory of the Despiser over the Land was preferable'

I would pose the question for whom?



For the people of the land? I think not.

For Foul? Probably not - if the people of the land had suffered a total defeat, then there would be no Lords and so how would the Despiser have been able to apply pressure to TC to surrender the ring? (assuming that he always had the ability to summon him in the first place. But it is always possible that the events of the desecration made the summoning possible. If not, then why had Foul waited so long to do it? He doesn't seem the patient sort - when he bides his time it seems to be because he has no choice)

For the creator? Quite possibly. He is the one whose plans are threatened by the white gold being in the land and therefore the one who would most like to see Foul rot with no hope of escape. Yet would he not like to save his creation if he can (there is evidence he cares a lot about it and so would take the risk)

It begs the question of who initially chose TC? And when Rockworm summoned TC to the Land, was it coincidence that he summoned someone who had a white-gold ring. Yet TC IS the white gold (or both he and Mhoram are wrong). Which kind of suggests that he was picked to be sent to the land. I do not see Foul as having the necessary influence to select someone from our world - and certainly not when it was Drool's hands on the staff. Therefore it was the creator (or someone else...) who chose TC and who allowed someone to go through who is capable of destroying his creation - presumably because he wants to save it and is prepared to take the risk. He would not be in a position to do so had the ritual of desecration not happened.

Of course, none of this would be possible had Berek not created the staff of Law - and the creator (allegedly) guided him in how to do that. Berek also foresaw white gold coming to the land - how?

You can take that one step further - were the Lords specifically led (through Berek) to create the staff and then use earthpower in such a way as to:

1 attract Foul to the land
2 Ensure that white-gold was then summoned to the Land ?

If so, whose plan is it?

In all cases it can be argued that everyone needs the ritual of desecration to happen. Paradoxically, it is also everyone's worst nightmare because it can save or damn any of them and they cannot guarantee to control it.

Hhmmm SRD relying on a paradox as a central theme to his story? Now there's a novel thought!!

[/quote]

[Warmark]

I would beleive that all the Old Lords were going to appear if it was said that they disapearred and not died. Then they could have been caesured away. But we know that died because we saw them in the throne room in TPTP

[Variol Farseer]

In answer to Edelaith's:

'A complete victory of the Despiser over the Land was preferable'

I would pose the question for whom?

For the people of the land? I think not.

For Foul? Probably not - if the people of the land had suffered a total defeat, then there would be no Lords and so how would the Despiser have been able to apply pressure to TC to surrender the ring? (assuming that he always had the ability to summon him in the first place. But it is always possible that the events of the desecration made the summoning possible. If not, then why had Foul waited so long to do it? He doesn't seem the patient sort - when he bides his time it seems to be because he has no choice)

If Foul had won a complete victory over the Old Lords, he would have got hold of the Staff of Law; and the Staff of Law has the power to summon white gold. It's safe to say that outcome would have been worse.

But in fact the people of the Land were not entirely beaten, even if Kevin himself had given up. Some of the Lords survived. The Seven Wards remained. Bloodguard, Ranyhyn, Ramen, rhadhamaerl and lillianrill still survived. Many of the people of the Land still lived. The Unhomed were unconquered (and until the Illearth Stone showed up, unconquerable). The Demondim and ur-viles were unreliable servants of the Despiser, and might have turned against him in time. And Caerroil Wildwood, in his own way, had more power than all of them put together. And there were many other nations and powers outside the Land, where Lord Foul's power could not yet reach.

There was plenty of material for further resistance, and even the total defeat of the Old Lords was not enough to guarantee Lord Foul's victory. Kevin despaired because he had an exaggerated idea of his own importance. He thought that if he himself could not defeat Despite, nobody could. Mhoram, faced with the same dangers in a later age (and with Foul holding the Staff and Stone to boot), was wiser.

[Avatar]

Ahh...Edelaith. The power of the Old Lords did not suffice in their own time. Why would it now be compelling enough to defeat Despite?

If the people of the Land live solely with hope in legend, they will never find within themseves their own answer to Despite.

Damn. Those words could have come from Mhoram's mouth so easily. Great post Ur-Bane.

--A

[Edelaith]

Oh, I absolutely agree that Linden shouldn't mess with time again, and I don't think she will. I do believe she will pay bitterly for messing with time even once. I mean, a payment in addition to the Demondim mess. Just my gut feeling.

The logic used by Linden was fatally flawed: if those around her couldn't prove it didn't happen, then it might have happened, so she would risk that it did happen.
Linden confirmed that Staves' people and the people of the Land, did not know what happened to the Staff, so perhaps she took it. She didn't bother to ask the people who actually would have known - those people being the Elohim, assuming they would tell her the truth - and thus have known whether she was actually going to violate Casuality and bring down the Arch of Time and the World with it. No, she took the risk blindly instead.
By some stroke of fortune, Linden had taken the Staff all those years ago, so Casuality was not violated ... but it COULD have been otherwise. Linden didn't seem to care about that, however.

If Linden has this kind of poor judgement, then the Demondim are far worse. They are currently violating time by pulling corrupted power through it. Not to mention that messing with the Illearth Stone is a bad idea in the first place. These Demondim could do just about anything.

Lindens' flawed logic leads to the speculation about the Old Lords.
Nobody can prove they died, because nobody who was around Revelstone at the moment of the Ritual of Desecration came out to give an eyewitness report of what happened. And nobody mentions finding remains of bodies 500 years later, when Revelstone was reoccupied.
So, using Lindens' logic, maybe the Old Lords didn't perish. And if so, then she could make it so by going back in time and rescuing them. And if rescuing Jeremiah required it, she might just do this.
Of course, the Demondim seem to lack judgement, period. Any use of the Illearth Stone is profoundly unwise. Drawing it's corruption through time, violating time itself with the essence of the Stone, is a worse mistake yet. But it seems these beings don't care.