Defend the Land!

[drew]

Explosives still might have been a little diffiucult to covince the Lords of, too much of a chance of somthing going wrong.

Catapults, though...they could have come in handy--Satinsfist's army used them, but one up on top of Revelstone hurling rocks down would have caused some damage. Or a smaller once being drug around by the army could have helped them against Fleshharrower's forces..

Although then there is the argument that hurling rock is wrong for the sake of the stone!!

[variol son]

So yeah, all this Ramen prowess is very relevant. Had Hile Troy made that little real life comparison I just made (and he could have) he might have thought upon the matter of joining forces with them, no?

I certainly agree that he should have considered an alliance with the Ramen, but I'm not sure whether or not they would have gone for it. Manethrall Rue said something to the effect that she went on the scouting mission only out of her regard for TC, and what he'd accomplished with the Ranyhyn.

But she also says that the Ramen came out of the hills to fights alongside the Lords when the Lords fought at Landsdrop, so Edelaith's idea of fighting alongside them on the eastern Plains of Ra is feasible.

Sum sui generis
Vs

[High Lord Tolkien]

Catapults, though...they could have come in handy--Satinsfist's army used them, but one up on top of Revelstone hurling rocks down would have caused some damage. Or a smaller once being drug around by the army could have helped them against Fleshharrower's forces..

I'm only a casual reader of Medieval warfare but I can't remember there ever being a case of the castle defenders using catapults.
Other devices to drop nasty stuff down on the enemy but not catapults.
Catapults were used to destroy stationary targets.
Like castle walls.

And are you suggesting "mobile"catapults used against the Ravers forces outside of Revelstone?
Wow.
Good luck.
I'm staying inside.

[High Lord Tolkien]

I do wonder what the Old Lords did in battle.

Trothguard is a wasteland because of it?
Broken stone and no vegetation.

The enemy must have been the same as now: ur-Vile, Kresh and Cavewrights, plus some Demondim maybe?
We don't know when the Demondim were "destroyed".
There was no Illearth Stone to warp creatures like in Troy's time and no Giant Raver.
Probably 3 Raver possessed ur-Viles/Demondim instead.

What could those Old Lords do?
Earthquakes?
Walls of Lords fire running like a tsunami?
Tornadoes of broken stone?

And they still lost.
Wow.

It's funny.
Troy "lost" because he was massively out numbered.
But was he out powered if you take away the Giant Raver?
Where the Old Lords really that more powerful?
Or were the New Lords just in so much awe that they assumed they were puny in comparision.
Why couldn't the Old Lords heal Trothguard for example.
(I might be mistaken but I thought Trothguard was "destroyed" even before the RoD)
Maybe the other missing Wards just fine tuned the supposed power levels Kevin expected the New Lords to have.
It didn't teach them how to make hotter Lords fire issue from their staffs but rather how to be more creative.

Just some thoughts.

[Worm of Despite]

Okay, here's how I, Lord Foul, would do it:

I'd being with a song, which goes like this:

"Marshall, Will, and Holly on a routine expedition
Met the greatest earthquake ever known.
High on the rapids it struck their tiny raft.
And plunged them down a thousand feet below.
To the Land of the Lost."

I would then make Foultars of all the Council members, including Mhoram.

Oh, I thought you said Desecrate the Land. You meant defend? Well, that's an oxymoron, in my case.

[wayfriend]

(Land Of The Lost)

[Edelaith]

In the First Chronicles, what would you say the ratio of combat prowess of one people versus another is?
For example, how many warriors of the Warward does it take to equal a Haruchai?
How many Haruchai equal a Ramen? (or vice versa)
How many Ramen equal a Raynhim? (or vice versa)
How many Raynhim equal a Waynhim? (or vice versa)
How many Waynhim equal an Ur-Vile? (or vice versa)
How many Ur-Viles equal a Cavewight? (or vice versa)
How many Cavewights equal a Stonewarped Creature? (or vice versa)

Because you can't Defend the Land until you know the answer to these questions.

[Avatar]

I agree with Drew that the Lords might not have been all that keen on the idea of explosives, at least partly because we're talking about a diminsihment of personal responsibility there. That said, I think Troy would have prevailed.

IIRC, it wasn't uncommon for besieged fortifications to mount their own "siege" weapons to defend themselves, small catapults, ballistae, or mangonels mounted on tower-tops would be quite effective. (And the Gravellingasses heaved graveling at the stuff the ur-viles fired at them, so there's no reason why they couldn't load catapults with them.)

Edelaith--, very keen on the whole equivalency thing aren't you?

While I agree, as I said, that say the Haruchai would be "equal" to a greater number of other foes, when we talk about numbers like that, it doesn't really matter.

Take the Ranyhyn for example: They faced extinction from the Kresh until they allied with the Ramen. In other words, a certain number of Kresh can pull down a Ranyhyn.

The greatest warrior can be killed by a mob of determined peasants. One to one equivalency just doesn't work. Take one haruchai, facing one Ur-Vile. (And ignore the fact that Ur-Viles are armed, and lorewise.) Sure. He kills the Ur-Vile. At what cost? The second is harder to kill. The haruchai suffers wounds. The third is harder yet. And that's taking them on one at a time. Even one Haruchai against 5 or 10 ur-viles at the same time is likely to be defeated.

I'm certainly not guessing at the numbers each one is equal to. There is nothing to give us a solid enough basis for some sort of equation, IMO.

--Avatar

[Warmark]

(And the Gravellingasses heaved graveling at the stuff the ur-viles fired at them, so there's no reason why they couldn't load catapults with them.)

I often wonder why they didnt use this when retreating from the mithil vally. it would have slowed/injured the pursuing kresh.then again when they retreat from Dooms Retreat they could have covered the entrance with gravling.

I agree that hurling gravling/rocks down from the Keep of Revelstone onto the tightly packed besiegers would have caused alot of damage.

How did the gravlingas get the gravling, was there a finite amount?

During the seige the defenders should have had a constant amount of archers upon the wall in a relay system. The common people should have been used to make arrows and each of tehm shoul have been made to go up to the plateua and collect rocks. They should have then thrown these down upon the army like slingers do.

there should have been a Lord constantly firing Lords fire down upon the beseigers, again in a relay system. If the Lords keep up this tactic of using missiles Flesharrowers ary will gradually be wittled away to a managable size. I hope. .

[High Lord Tolkien]

IIRC, it wasn't uncommon for besieged fortifications to mount their own "siege" weapons to defend themselves, small catapults, ballistae, or mangonels mounted on tower-tops would be quite effective. (And the Gravellingasses heaved graveling at the stuff the ur-viles fired at them, so there's no reason why they couldn't load catapults with them.)

I think in this case, judging by the size of the Raver's army, that it would have been like throwing rocks into a pond.
A small splash and then the water closes back in and fills the gap.

Edelaith--, very keen on the whole equivalency thing aren't you?

Yeah, Edelaith, it sounds very Dungeons and Dragonish.
I don't like to think in those terms myself.

While I agree, as I said, that say the Haruchai would be "equal" to a greater number of other foes, when we talk about numbers like that, it doesn't really matter.

I'm certainly not guessing at the numbers each one is equal to. There is nothing to give us a solid enough basis for some sort of equation, IMO.

--Avatar

Remember that Grim flake that killed a Haruchai in the Close?
Does that mean 1 Grim flake = 1 Haruchai?
No, I'm just being silly.
It's too easy to fall into the video game-like strengths charts.
It's fun though.
I could do it all day!

[Edelaith]

(shrugs)

They couldn't win, regardless of what they did or how much force they had.
Foul knew it. The Lords knew it. Even Thomas Covenant knew it. Only Hile Troy seemed not to realize the truth. (And also High Lord Elena, tragically.)
Mhorams' parents knew the truth practically from the moment they saw Covenant, 40 years before any army of Fouls' marched against the Land.

But hey, if you're going to do a What If, you need some parameters, don't you?
I was thinking of those tactical boardgames you see at hobby stores. Or chess.

[Avatar]

Oh, I know where you're coming from, but its not a quantifiable constant. Afterall, much as we might say in chess that a knight is equal to 3 pawns, a pawn can still take a knight. Or a queen for that matter.

And Troy was right as it turned out, wasn't he? He won. It cost him everything, but he still won.

--Avatar

[Warmark]

I just though, i wonder why Troy never tried to get the Lords to manage to preserve food longer?
I mean he could have taugh them to keep in cold etc or could the mine to make tins?

It would have helped both in suppling the Warward and survivng a seige.

[Avatar]

Can't imagine it would have been much of a problem, dried food is light and easy to carry, and requires no technology or magic.

There's no real mention of what standard of technology exists in terms of metal work, although I guess we can assume some basic level, as we know Berek forged the heels of the staff of Law. No mention is made of blacksmiths though, and I'm not even sure if we know that the horses are shoed.

Canning however, requires industrialisation and automation though. In our world, canning in metal (tin coated steel) containers only began in the early 1800's, and it took 6 hours to process the food for it. It requires at least machinery to extract oxygen.

--Avatar

[Edelaith]

I'm going to do an assessment of the population of the Land based on what I read and inferred from the imagery in the books. I'm not going to make inferrences based on medieval civilizations or other historical precedent.
The number of people I come up with is very small, taking this direct approach.

Revelstone has a few thousand. Revelwood also has a few thousand.
The Warward contained 20,000 men and women in The Illearth War, and gained 6,000 more prior to The Power that Preserves. I'm guessing most of the people that could join the Loresraat did (either Sword of Staff) and if that's half the population of the North, Center, and South Plains and Revelstone then their combined population would be around 52,000. (Revelwood not included, since this was where they all went for training. Of course, Revelwood had it's own population in addition to them.)
In the South Plains only six Stonedowns are mentioned, and no Woodhelven. Two Woodhelvenin are mentioned just east of the South Plains. Each of these places had a few hundred people, making for a population of no more than 4,000. Half of this population I am guessing joined the Loresraat.
In the Plains of Ra, only a few hundred Ramen dwelt at Manhome. If the rest of the population were fighters, and even if they outnumbered the non-fighters by 10 to 1, that would only make for a few thousand Ramen.

So, I'm guessing:

North Plains: 10,000 (including the rural population around Revelstone)
Center Plains: 33,000
Revelstone: 5,000 and 500 Bloodguard
Revelwood: 2,000 (not including the Loreraat and it's students)
South Plains and Adjacent Hills: 4,000
Plains of Ra: 4,000 Ramen and an equal number (4,000) of Raynhim
Coercri: 500 Giants
Other Areas: Less than a thousand Waynhim.

Total Pre-War Population: 54,000 human, 500 Bloodguard, 4,000 Ramen, 4,000 Raynhim, 1,000 Waynhim.

In The Illearth War and The Power that Preserves, this sparse population was decimated, as follows:

The Illearth War: Warward casualties of nearly 16,000, Ramen casualties in the hundreds, Raynhim casualties in the hundreds. Hundreds of Bloodguard killed. The Giants are all killed.
The Power that Preserves: At least 2,000 casualties in the fall of Revelwood. Roughly half the defenders of Revelstone killed, or another 4,000 people. Hundreds of additional casualties in Revelstone. The remaining Bloodguard return home. Many casualties in the South Plains. Half of the Ramen and half of the Raynhim killed, minimum. Several hundred Waynhim killed.

Survivors at the end of The Power that Preserves:

31,000 regular Land types.
1,500 Ramen and an equal number of Raynhim.
700 Waynhim.
(The Bloodguard that returned home.)

If I am right, and the original populations were 54,000 / 500 / 4,000 / 4,000 / 1,000, then against Lord Foul and his 1,200,000 they were obviously overwhelmed. I have to wonder what Hile Troy would have done, had he appreciated the odds?
I've been rereading The Illearth War. Fleshharrower said it right when he said: your force is too small to be called an army.
Add in the fact that Lord Foul had what we would call air supremacy, thanks to his griffins, and Hopeless is an understatement for the situation regarding the defenders.

[Avatar]

Good Post Edelaith, I pretty much agree that that is likely to be as close to accurate that we can get. I might even be a little low, but far better than what we've come up with before.

--Avatar

[Zarathustra]

I tend to agree with the few posts here that dismiss this entire thread as an exercise in missing the point. Are there ways in which Hile Troy could have done better? Of course--he was SUPPOSED to fail (for Donaldson's purposes). There were supposed to be errors in his plan. Thus, it is easy to come up with something better.

But could you come up with a plan that would defeat Foul's armies with pure might alone? No, which was the whole point (and why Troy had to fail). Despite isn't something you simply eradicate with brute force; this is an inauthentic approach to the problem, a denial of its necessity as a feature of reality and human beings.

So if you want to ask, "What if ...?" then finish the question. What you're really asking is: "What if we ignore Donaldson's whole point in creating the Illearth War for the sole purpose of undermining his point by imagining conditions under which Despite could have been defeated with pure physical might?"

The attempt is absurd.

[CovenantJr]

So if you want to ask, "What if ...?" then finish the question. What you're really asking is: "What if we ignore Donaldson's whole point in creating the Illearth War for the sole purpose of undermining his point by imagining conditions under which Despite could have been defeated with pure physical might?"

Yes, that's exactly the question. And I think you're missing the point. Discussions don't always have to be po-faced exchanges of philosophy. Sometimes they can even be light hearted, though the concept may offend your dour sensibilities.

[matrixman]

Malik, I think it's a bit harsh to "dismiss" this thread and all the fascinating ideas that have been forwarded.

I can understand that you're defending the story as written by SRD, but we're all here because we love the Chronicles. I think we all recognize that Troy was supposed to fail for the purposes of the story SRD was telling, but we have our own imaginations too. Are you saying you've never sat back after reading TIW and pondered alternative outcomes just for the fun of it? That's what this whole discussion is: just another fun--and creative--way to think about these books we know and love. It's our very passion for the stories SRD writes that inspires us to use our imaginations like this.

Actually, I got way behind in this thread and only now caught up to all that's been posted. What incredibly in-depth posts by Edelaith...and what a doozy by Avatar!

Avatar's assessment of Troy was that he was a genius. I'm not sure I can bring myself to call him that, but Troy in the end did do good, by "clinching" the bargain with Caerroil Wildwood that led to the Warward's salvation and the destruction of Fleshharrower. Troy sacrificed himself for the Warward and the cause, and that can't be taken from him.

[Warmark]

Personally, i enjoyed this thread a lot it was good to hear others opinons aswell, tactics etc.