Will we ever know what the hell happened?

[Worm of Despite]

Warning: get ready for an ignorant layman to wax on about the origin of everything. Speculation, again, but speculation is fun.

Anyway, the universe. Will humans ever develop the means to find out exactly what occurred?

I mean, it's just so hard to grasp what the heck the universe really is (for me, at least). We could be part of a single space continuum, but maybe we're just one universe in a multiverse? And while the Big Bang explains a lot, how does one explain the Big Bang itself? I mean, the singularity of the Big Bang had to come from somewhere, right?

It's just so vast it's mind-boggling, and there's so much to find out. I wish I had been born in a very distant future, because it seems our technology (and our place in the universe) is more than limited. We're pretty much crippled to this globe. Maybe we'll find the means to explore a great deal outside of this solar system, but exploring a great deal of the universe? I don't know.

I mean, if humanity survives through this relative infancy and blossoms out into outer space, we could sustain ourselves for billions of years, possibly. Who knows how much we could find out? *shrugs* I'm not the best at this stuff, but it sure interests me.

One last thing: can someone knowledgeable on the Big Bang tell me something here? This is kind of picky, but I'm wondering: did the Big Bang create the universe, or was it merely an event in the universe? I mean, there had to be something--some kind of space or just something--that surrounded the Big Bang before it happened, right? Or was it all just a blank white background before the universe occurred? heh

[Avatar]

Even a blank background is something, isn't it? I'm not sure we know. And like you, I'm not sure we ever will.

Our ideas about what happened may continually improve, but really, the only way to know would be to witness it.

Of course, some theorise that once the universe stops unwinding, (because we know it is still expanding), it'll snap back in the opposite direction, and everything will rush together again.

Whether or not humanity will be around to experience it, I'm not sure at best, and dubious at worst.

I suppose another way would be if we could ever duplicate the event on a limited scale through particle acceleration experiments. apparently, it's possible in theory.

Whether or not we ever manage it though, is as open for debate as anything else.

The long and the short of it is that we can't know now whether or not we'll ever know.

But nothing can predict the appearance of human genius.

--Avatar

[Warmark]

It's just so vast it's mind-boggling

I coundnt agree more.

[matrixman]

Warning: get ready for an ignorant layman to wax on about the origin of everything.

Well, I'm a layman, too, but I occasionally alleviate my own ignorance by reading popular science books--the ones in more or less plain English, without too many fancy equations and graphs thrown in.

For an overall perspective on cosmological thought from ancient times to current research, I highly recommend Timothy Ferris's book, The Whole Shebang: A State-of-the-Universe Report. The title might seem arrogant, but it's meant to be tongue-in-cheek. Ferris is one of the most cogent science writers I've ever come across. He might be the most passionate and eloquent science advocate since Carl Sagan.

Anyway, The Whole Shebang touches on many of the controversial issues in cosmology, like the universe/multiverse debate you bring up, LF. Ferris also doesn't shy away from addressing the always prickly relationship between science and religion.

I hope this thread doesn't turn into nasty science vs. religion trash talk , but maybe the nature of cosmology makes that inevitable. When science delves into the origins of the universe, it encroaches on a field of inquiry that has traditionally been the province of philosophy and religion. So sparks tend to fly.

Maybe the Loresraat forum is a more appropriate place for science talk, heh.

Oh, what the hell...

And while the Big Bang explains a lot, how does one explain the Big Bang itself? I mean, the singularity of the Big Bang had to come from somewhere, right?

Darn it, I wish I had a copy of Stephen Hawking's A Brief History of Time on me. Hawking ruminated on the nature of the Big Bang singularity, but I honestly had a difficult time following his ideas. Even though he had written the book for the general public, I'm afraid Hawking's writing isn't as clear as, say, Timothy Ferris's. My half-coherent understanding of Hawking is this: the Big Bang singularity is really not a singularity. Picture the universe as a cone-shape expanding from the point of the Big Bang. But that end point of the conecup is not a sharp point; instead it is a smooth curve. In effect, there is no definitive "before" and "after." (Or something like that...) After that, it gets fuzzy. (Me, not Hawking.)

It's just so vast it's mind-boggling, and there's so much to find out. I wish I had been born in a very distant future, because it seems our technology (and our place in the universe) is more than limited. We're pretty much crippled to this globe. Maybe we'll find the means to explore a great deal outside of this solar system, but exploring a great deal of the universe? I don't know.

I mean, if humanity survives through this relative infancy and blossoms out into outer space, we could sustain ourselves for billions of years, possibly.

Assuming we use astronomer Nikolai Kardashev's method for categorizing future civilizations, then a Type III civilization should have the resources to explore a good deal of the universe. We are presently a Type 0 civilization: still technological weaklings from a cosmic perspective. A Type I civilization is planetary: able to control the forces on its planet like the weather and earthquakes and gaining energy from them. A Type II civilization is stellar: able to use solar flares for energy, and able to begin colonizing neighbouring solar systems. A Type III civilization is galactic: it's able to use the power of billions of stars, black holes and supernovae, and it can even manipulate space-time. So the universe would be a near-limitless playground for such an advanced society.

One last thing: can someone knowledgeable on the Big Bang tell me something here? This is kind of picky, but I'm wondering: did the Big Bang create the universe, or was it merely an event in the universe? I mean, there had to be something--some kind of space or just something--that surrounded the Big Bang before it happened, right? Or was it all just a blank white background before the universe occurred? heh

The Big Bang generated the universe, it was not an event inside it. Space as we know it did not "surround" the Big Bang, it was created from the "initial" explosion and expanded from the Big Bang along with everything else. You could say "nothing" surrounded the Big Bang, but on the quantum mechanical scale, billions of times smaller than an atom, nothingness is really a chaotic realm. Instead of the usual three dimensions of ordinary space with a natural and directed flow of time, space-time at this scale is a random and fluctuating froth that continually changes its geometry every 10 to the minus 43 seconds (sorry, don't know how to display scientific notation here). No meaningful separation of time and space exists in this high-energy realm. Quantum mechanics and gravity are locked in a battle with truly cosmic implications.

"Bubbles" of microscopic space-time are always erupting from this "probabilistic" foam. Most of these bubbles will expand and re-collapse back into that foam, happening in ridiculously short intervals of time. On occasion, when the conditions are just right, an erupting bubble of space-time will undergo a fantastically rapid, superluminal (faster-than-light) expansion. The exponentially growing region of space-time stretches far beyond the background foam, so much so that it becomes effectively separated. This newly isolated region can now continue its expansion forever, though at a slower rate. Welcome to our universe.

[lurch]

...latest edition of the National Geographic Magazine does a nice overview with illustrations,,on the subject of cosmology,,actually its more in tribute to Einstien.

...Based on current estimates of the age of the universe we inhabit,,13.5 billion years...plus or minus a few billion...and how far back current best efforts are seeing,,estimation of to around 10 to 12 billion years ago..it is conceivable that someday soon humans will be seeing what it was like perhaps only millions of years after the big bang. In effect, the cosmic microwave back ground IS the echo or left overs or "ash" of the big bang. Take the cable hook up off your TV and turn on your TV. 10 percent of what you see and hear..the " snow" and shshshshshs sound,,is the cosmic micro-wave background. So, in a sense,,there you are.

..A new theory,,supposedly backed up by simpler mathmatics than what led to the Big Bang proposition, and based in String Theory,,,,is , that the big bang actually was more like Two Universes sweeping thru each other. Imagine Universes like a pages of paper in a book. Well, what we theorize as the big bang,,may have been one of those pages passing thru the page we inhabit. Just recently, astronomers have discovered galaxies, and thus stars to have existed earlier than supposed. This has forced cosmologists to revamp some of their thinking on the timing of events soon after the " big bang" started its inflation...

But,,the initial question you propose is the problem. The Big Answer is an abstract, a Ideal. Its not the answer that Human Kind really expects. Its the CONTINUAL pursuit,,the continual exploration, that is what Human Kind is all for and about. When you think you have all the answers, then you are truelly dead. So, to answer your question, No, we will never know it all,,perhaps even the origins of " all of it",,but thats a good thing...MEL

[Sheriff Lytton]

You many find this NASA site full of information suitable for leisurely digestion, Lord Foul.

map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni.html

[wayfriend]

Suppose you are one of a race of beings. You're curious folk, you believe in a God who created the universe, but you build telescopes and cyclotrons to figure out how the world really works to. Over time, your technology advances. You take control of your own evolution. You take control of the evolution of other species. You're mind becomes more capable, it encompasses more. Communication becomes like the air, it's everywhere, in everything. You terraform planets; you build planets. The barriers between minds break down; the distinction becomes pointless. You put stars where you need them. You create new laws of physics. You reach the edge of the universe, and touch it with the flat of your hand, you say to yourself, I think I can make one of these.

Then you see that the end is nearing; the heat/death of the universe as it collapses back onto itself, becomes a singularity, and then bangs big again. You know that time is circular; the end of the universe is also the beginning.

Now you have a mission. You are like unto the God you once imagined; but not even God can survive the reboot of the universe. But there is something that can be done. It's possible to put the right spin on giant masses, create the right density of quantum particles, adjust the natural laws enough to store your name in the decimal places of pi - with the result that some information will make it through to the other side of the universal singularity.

It is possible, by devoting the remainder of your existence, to affect what happens on the other side of the big bang.

Now it's done. Then the universe is reborn. The seeds you planted into the metafabric of the universe unfold. There is matter. There are stars. There are planets. There is water. There is life. Just as you had intended.

The life crawls out of the water, looks up at the stars, and wonders. How did I come to be? Why am I here? It imagines a God. And then builds a telescope.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Suppose you are one of a race of beings. You're curious folk, you believe in a God who created the universe, but you build telescopes and cyclotrons to figure out how the world really works to. Over time, your technology advances. You take control of your own evolution. You take control of the evolution of other species. You're mind becomes more capable, it encompasses more. Communication becomes like the air, it's everywhere, in everything. You terraform planets; you build planets. The barriers between minds break down; the distinction becomes pointless. You put stars where you need them. You create new laws of physics. You reach the edge of the universe, and touch it with the flat of your hand, you say to yourself, I think I can make one of these.

Then you see that the end is nearing; the heat/death of the universe as it collapses back onto itself, becomes a singularity, and then bangs big again. You know that time is circular; the end of the universe is also the beginning.

Now you have a mission. You are like unto the God you once imagined; but not even God can survive the reboot of the universe. But there is something that can be done. It's possible to put the right spin on giant masses, create the right density of quantum particles, adjust the natural laws enough to store your name in the decimal places of pi - with the result that some information will make it through to the other side of the universal singularity.

It is possible, by devoting the remainder of your existence, to affect what happens on the other side of the big bang.

Now it's done. Then the universe is reborn. The seeds you planted into the metafabric of the universe unfold. There is matter. There are stars. There are planets. There is water. There is life. Just as you had intended.

The life crawls out of the water, looks up at the stars, and wonders. How did I come to be? Why am I here? It imagines a God. And then builds a telescope.

*clap clap clap*
That was great!

[Avatar]

Yeah! Awesome post WayFriend.

--Avatar

[Loredoctor]

Suppose you are one of a race of beings. You're curious folk, you believe in a God who created the universe, but you build telescopes and cyclotrons to figure out how the world really works to. Over time, your technology advances. You take control of your own evolution. You take control of the evolution of other species. You're mind becomes more capable, it encompasses more. Communication becomes like the air, it's everywhere, in everything. You terraform planets; you build planets. The barriers between minds break down; the distinction becomes pointless. You put stars where you need them. You create new laws of physics. You reach the edge of the universe, and touch it with the flat of your hand, you say to yourself, I think I can make one of these.

Then you see that the end is nearing; the heat/death of the universe as it collapses back onto itself, becomes a singularity, and then bangs big again. You know that time is circular; the end of the universe is also the beginning.

Now you have a mission. You are like unto the God you once imagined; but not even God can survive the reboot of the universe. But there is something that can be done. It's possible to put the right spin on giant masses, create the right density of quantum particles, adjust the natural laws enough to store your name in the decimal places of pi - with the result that some information will make it through to the other side of the universal singularity.

It is possible, by devoting the remainder of your existence, to affect what happens on the other side of the big bang.

Now it's done. Then the universe is reborn. The seeds you planted into the metafabric of the universe unfold. There is matter. There are stars. There are planets. There is water. There is life. Just as you had intended.

The life crawls out of the water, looks up at the stars, and wonders. How did I come to be? Why am I here? It imagines a God. And then builds a telescope.

Possibly one of the best posts I have ever read here! Well done.

Foul - there are a number of theories about the big bang. A current theory is that our universe is situated on a membrane in higher space. Other universes are on other membranes, each separate. They theorise that when two membranes connect (as they undulate, the membranes come close to each other) there is a massive amount of energy released. They think this may have caused the big bang. They also think it happens frequently (in universal timescales).

Another theory is that the universe was born of nothing - a quantum irregularity 'birthed' the universe. Perhaps in a similar way virtual particles are created the universe was born as well. Or perhaps, if one adopts the 'philosophy' of quantum physics, our universe was in a state of being/not being, and either 'statistically collapsed' into being - sort of like an immense Schrödinger event.

The big bang was not an explosion of just matter. It was an explosion of space, as well. Hence, space is expanding (and current theories are that the universe is accelerating).