The Creator's Non-Appearance

[Avatar]

Dlb's post in the GI thread today reminded me of this. Linden was pretty upset that the old guy in the ochre robe never pitched up. But what makes her think he was supposed to?

He made an appearance once for Covenant. (And wasn't Covenant surprised that he'd showed up for Linden later, and not for him?) And then he showed up for Linden at the beginning of the 2nd chrons. Not for TC.

What made Linden assume he'd show up again? She had no evidence to suggest he would, but she seems to take it as a personal affront when he doesn't.

Maybe he showed up for Jeremiah? Maybe everybody only gets one visitation? Would make sense to me, given he turned up once only for each of them so far.

--Avatar

[Warmark]

I always thought it was just once per person. So the real question is who saw the Oche robe guy?

[drew]

I have the feeling he didn't show.

When He apeared to Linden in the 2nd chrons...she told TC about it..so he Knew that the Creator was present.

Linden didn't know she was going to the Land for sure, she just made an educated guess (albiet, a very easy educated guess)

I think the Creator is gone.

[ur-bane]

I would tend to ascribe this to the "tool" issue. If he showed up again after they knew who he was, wouldn't that in essence make them effectless, his tool?
The creator's words to Covenant were along the lines of "I took a risk appearing to you in the first place..." He then went on to describe the "tool" issue. (I don't have my books so I cannot get the exact quote....but it was after Covenant had defeated Foul, during the trip back to his own world.)

Also, he had no need to reappear a second time to Linden or to Covenant.
When Linden revived him, overcoming the foul stench of rot exuding from his mouth, he knew she had it in her to accomplish the task. That was enough. She passed his test, as did Covenant.

As Warmark says, the question is "Who saw the ocher-robed guy?"

Jeremiah would seem to be the logical choice, should the pattern of hand-offs continue. Or perhaps it was Roger himself to whom the creator appeared. There's just a part of me that wants to believe Roger will not be who we think he is. (If he's truly out for himself, what would stop him from being what Foul was to High Lord kevin--a betrayer?)

Of course, all this is assuming the creator did show up in the first place.
I guess my money would in fact be on Jeremiah, though.

[drew]

I like the Roger idea..never thought of that before.

I just can't bring myself to beleive that he appeared to Jerry. I suppose it's posible..I just really think the Creator left-and I think it's nearly time for the Worm to wake up, on it's own acord.

[I'm Murrin]

Although, you have to take into consideration that Joan is the one who was initially summoned in the Prologue - she just brought the others after her. Couldn't the beggar have appeared to her?

[ur-bane]

I had thought of that also, Murrin. Perhaps it was his appearance to her that finally pushed her over the edge....possessed by an eternally evil Raver, appeared to by an eternally kind creator....the dilemma would be mind-rending, especially with the Raver tearing out her true self, and the hidden corner of sanity attaching itself to the Creator's words.

But maybe also, the passing of the torch will continue, and this time, the true champion will be someone from the Land itself. Perhaps the creator appeared to a Lander in the form of a more familiar entity. Perhaps the earthers we know as our heroes no longer hold any sway, and they will partake in events that shift the balance of heroes back to a champion of the Land.
After all, the denizens of the Land need to fight Foul on their own...surely the Creator does not intend to pick souls from our earth for eternity.

Think about it, too for a moment. If white gold is the only power strong enough to complete Foul's design, why not erect a barrier between worlds that would not allow the summonsing to take place? If Foul couldn't reach out between worlds, he would have no way of obtaining the white gold, and it then follows that the threat of the Earth's destruction is crushed.

[Avatar]

Interesting points, and I think there's an equal chance that it was Jeremiah, Roger, or Joan that he manifested before.

The "tool" argument is, I think, a good one. Certainly there was no evidence for Linden to assume he should appear to her.

--A

[drew]

She, was upset that he didn't show up to her..
But so was TC at the begining of the 2nd chrons, when he appeared before Linden.

[Avatar]

Sure. Although at least TC knew the guy had appeared.

What I'm wondering though, is what made Linden assume he would? She knew TC had only seen him the once, despite going to the Land several times, she knew that she'd only seen him once, My own conclusion would be, as was said, that each person only gets to see him once.

It apparently never occured to her that somebody else might have seen him this time.

--A

[drew]

Well not Yet anyway.
She was worried about Jerry, and terrified about Roger--she was hoping that she Wouldn't see the Creator-so that Roger Showing up asking about the Ring, and Jerry building Revelstone may have been coincidences.

I beleive that if she'd seen the Creator..just a glimpse, it would have driven her over the edge.

One interesting point hough-Covenant Did see the Creator twice; The second was after he had saved the Land.
Linden however, did not see him, after she defeated the Sunbane, which leads one to think, that the Creator knew she wasn't finished yet.

[Warmark]

Perhaps the creator appeared to a Lander

The Elohim Harbriger perhaps?

[danlo]

The artwork of many autistic children is, many times, so bizarre that it makes sense in a wild sort of way. It's almost as if they're seeing into an alternate dimension. Perhaps the Creator "guided" Jeremiah to the dimension of the Land thus explaining his Lego renderings...

[High Lord Tolkien]

Just throwing some thoughts out here:

If TC, Foul and the Creator are actually one in the same......
And TC now only exists in the Land along side Foul...........
Would the Creator not also have been drawn into the "Landverse" as well when TC "died"?
How could the creator exist without TC?

The Creator talked to TC at the end of PtP.
TC was alive at the beginning of WL so the Creator made an appearance to Linden.
At the end of WGW TC is "dead" but he talks to Linden.
The Creator either ceased to exist when TC "died" or he had to find a new "home" ala: Jeremiah.

[CovenantJr]

Although, you have to take into consideration that Joan is the one who was initially summoned in the Prologue - she just brought the others after her. Couldn't the beggar have appeared to her?

Interesting thought, but I have to wonder why he'd bother. His appearances to Covenant and Linden seemed to be either tests or some form of preparation, or both. Joan has been a loon for years, so why would he bother trying to test or prepare her?

I think it's one of three possibilities:

1) He appeared to someone who needed testing or preparing or whatever - specifically Roger or Jeremiah.
2) He didn't appear at all, because the need to do so wasn't sufficient for him to take that risk.
3) He's given up on the Land entirely and decided to start over from scratch.

Personally, I find option three the most intriguing.

Perhaps the creator appeared to a Lander in the form of a more familiar entity.

I don't see how this could happen. The Creator has expressly stated that he can't act in the Land directly without destroying the Arch and thereby defeating the object of summoning Covenant in the first place. If he appeared to a Lander, there would abruptly be no Landers and no Land.

[Avatar]

Agreed on almost all points, Cj. Not having the books with me, I can't check, but did TC actually physically "see" the Creator? Or was it just a disembodied voice? Minutiae I know, but curious.

--Avatar

[Warmark]

3) He's given up on the Land entirely and decided to start over from scratch.

As I have said before, I feel the Creator - if he has the power to permanently destroy of imprison Foul - should simply break the Arch and get rid of Foul.

[Avatar]

And forget about all the people?

--A

[Warmark]

yea, i know it sounds bad, but if it finally solves to problem of Foul.

[Avatar]

Sure, for the Creator. Of course, simply leaving him trapped in there, wreaking havoc on all the people, is a viable solution for him too.

It is, afterall, only a tiny corner of the universe.

--A