Something I hate to admit...

[Edelaith]

I concede your points. They are well made.
There isn't much more I could say on this subject. I do wish Covenant had chosen not to manipulate his daughter to her death, that he had recanted his ways in time, but that was not to be. (sighs)

[drew]

Unfortunatly though, if it wasn't for TC's despair, for himself..he might not have saved the Land in the End.

It was his paradox that he needed to controll.
He had to Not beleive in the Land, but love it enough to save it.

If he didn't blame himself for most of the wrongs in the Land, he may not have wanted to save it.

[CovenantJr]

I do wish ... that he had recanted his ways in time, but that was not to be. (sighs)

You make it sound as though Covenant bullheadedly stood by all his mistakes as examples of flawless judgement. Did you actually read the books? Covenant was tormented by guilt, by loss - by gain as well. He was tormented by everything he failed to do, everything he succeeded at, everything he did wrong or right. How can you think he didn't "recant his ways"?

I also have to question your assertion that he "manipulated his daughter to death". While it's true that Covenant did use many people to an extent, in order to save his own sanity, the word "manipulate" suggests a coldness I don't feel was present. Covenant wasn't calculating enough to be a manipulator. He wrestled his way through an unreal dream world, trying to balance his morality and impotence, his guilt and perceived power... He tried to keep so many things in a fragile balance that would relieve him of demands he couldn't possibly meet, while not harming anyone. It didn't always work, but how could it? Covenant was powerless but seen to be powerful; he tried to shield himself and everyone else from his failure by refusing to undertake tasks at which he could not succeed. But whenever he was thrown into a situation where he had to act instinctively, he did the right thing - charging the ur-viles at the Celebration of Spring is a prime example.

I was under the impression that Lord Foul stabbing Covenant was ultimately Covenant's choice, not punishment for his rape and almost committing incest

I agree. Covenant voluntarily made a sacrifice as a result of the man he had become, the ultimate sacrifice to preserve the things he had come to feel truly mattered; it was not some form of punishment for past crimes.

[theDespiser]

I do wish Covenant had chosen not to manipulate his daughter to her death, that he had recanted his ways in time, but that was not to be. (sighs)

he did..he didnt erase the past, but he made amends the best he could, as much as a flawed man such as himself was able

[Edelaith]

Don't get upset, CovenantJr. As much as I have a problem with many of his actions, I like Thomas Covenant. I was very upset by his death in the Second Chronicles. I've been a fan of the Chronicles for over 20 years. And I've read the books, many times each.

Of course Covenant felt bad about what he did. The fact that he did feel bad, showed he was turning to the Lords, turning away from allying with Lord Foul, turning away from sociopathy.
Remember that Covenant could have chosen Lord Foul, could have chosen utter repudiation of the Land, could have chosen permanent sociopathy. He didn't, and that speaks highly of him.
For a while though, Covenant felt bad, but didn't let that remorse get in the way of self survival. Survival came first. We see this behavior after his rape of Lena.
Later, we see Covenant develop remorse and a desire to make recompense. Yet he still commits further wrong, and there are further disastrous consequences. We see this in his manipulation of Elena.
Finally, remorse and a desire for recompense take over, and Covenant devotes himself to saving the Land. He ceases his bad behavior, and becomes the champion we wanted him to be.

What is unfortunate, is that Covenant took so long to give up his sociopathic ways and reembrace his humanity. By the time he did this, the Land and it's people had suffered terribly, and a great deal of permanent, irreparable destruction had occurred. That is what is sad. That is what is worth condemnation. Because remorse and restitution is great ... but how do you make restitution for murder, and rape, and betrayal? Covenant recanted, as you put it, but how do you make up for such henious crimes?
Covenant, of course, made the best case of restitution that he could possibly have done: he defeated and dispelled Lord Foul, then destroyed the Illearth Stone. And, for good or bad, those he wronged had to live with that. Most could live with that. Some could not.

Covenant himself admitted to manipulation of Elena, to her face.
In this situation, his admission was an attempt to save her. His humanity had come to the fore, and he was trying to protect and save his daughter, and that was the right thing to do.
What I lament is that Covenant did not make this decision earlier, when such an attempt would have succeeded, and Elena could have been saved from the death that awaited her.
I concede that Covenant was not a manipulator per se; certainly, he was not a manipulator like Lord Foul was. But in his desperate struggle to survive what he perceived as a killer dream illusion, he was willing to do what it took to survive. If this got other people hurt or killed, that was just too bad.
Covenant may have become a champion later, but he was not a very nice person early on. Now, you can say he was justified in his bad behavior, because he was merely trying to survive, but I do not think that excuses his behavior. A lot of other people in the Land were in equally desperate straits, and they did not stoop to Covenant's behavior to survive.

Yes, Covenant did the right thing by charging the ur-viles at the Celebration of Spring. Already, his remaining glimmer of humanity - long crushed under the dire reality of his leprosy - had begun to reassert itself. We saw the first inkling of what Covenant could become, if he chose to turn away from sociopathy and the ways of Lord Foul.
I'm not saying that Covenant had an easy time of it. He did not. The Land terrified him justifiably: the Land was a death sentence constantly staring him down the throat. A hard death at that; a slow death by rot and stench and pain. By the rules of his leprosy, that was what the Land was.
What I regret, what makes me sad, is that Covenant took so long to learn to cope with the Land, for his humanity to reassert itself, and for him to abandon his sociopathic ways. In the meantime, he left a trail of wreckage, ruined lives, and death behind him, and one of those who lay dead in his wake was his own daughter. And he - Thomas Covenant - accepted his part in that death, so I will not argue with him that he helped cause it.

[Edelaith]

Covenant's rape of Lena did not directly lead to his death at the end of the Second Chronicles.
But it set into effect a chain of events that led to that death. And I think I see in this a definitive style of writing by Stephen Donaldson: an emphasis on consequences. Acts, little and big, cause other acts, and these cause other acts, and destiny is thus written.

Covenant was defeated ... and dead ... from the start of the Second Chronicles. He was stabbed and killed in the real world, which meant he would be stabbed and killed in the Land. There was no way out of this fate for him, and after the events at the Isle of the One Tree he realized this.
Linden could have saved him, if she had acted early on with his help as they tried at the One Tree. But Linden was badly damaged at the beginning of the Second Chronicles, and Covenant did not have the ability to express that kind of power freely yet.
What caused this situation? The return of Lord Foul, of course. And his return was guaranteed by the breakage of the Staff of Law. That was caused by the showdown between Covenant and dead Elena, who fell to Kevin in Melenkurion Skyweir, because she drank the Earthblood and commanded him to go fight Lord Foul. And she did that because she was a little crazy, and that was partly Covenant's fault. And she also did that partly because Covenant manipulated her.
So it does all reflect back on Covenant. His actions helped shape destiny. And destiny killed him.

[Avatar]

Edelaith, what are you doing wandering around here? You should be joining us in the Close and the Think-Tank. I'm sure your posts will be a valuable addition to our discussions there...come...join us...

--Avatar

[wayfriend]

What is unfortunate, is that Covenant took so long to give up his sociopathic ways and reembrace his humanity.

You had me right up until that point, Edelaith. Covenant was never sociopathic. Someone who chastises themselves with outcast unclean! is at the opposite end of the spectrum from sociopath.

[CovenantJr]

I agree. Edelaith, you have said more than once that you find Covenant - at least in the early days - sociopathic and somehow inhuman, and that he regains his humaity as time goes on. I don't think Covenant was ever a sociopath; I think he was just very human from the beginning, and what you read as sociopathy I read as a deeply moral and emotional man pushed to the limits of both those traits. A sociopath pursues his or her own goals at the expense of others, but Covenant - though some of the manifestations may be similar - is pretty much the polar opposite, IMO.

And fret not, I was not and am not upset - just wrestling with your views

[Edelaith]

I must admit, Covenant befuddles me too. Not as much as Elena, but quite a lot.
I would be the last person to say I truly understood Donaldson's characters. I don't. The man creates very complicated characters and situations, and all I can do is be an armchair analysis (flushes.) I guess that's all any of us can do.

I think I will come over to the Think Tank. But don't count on me to present the best views! I'm just a fellow Donaldson fan, not a Literature Major.
Thanks for the invite, Avatar.

Covenant was not immediately sorry after he raped Lena. He knew he had committed wrong, but he did not care at that moment. Keep moving, survive, was his motto at the time. (The fact that Lena's mother saved his life after that makes the situation very ironic. Had Atiaran not come looking for Covenant, his best chance of survival was to immediately RETURN to Mithil Stonedown!!)
That is sociopathic. Put criminal behavior behind you. Don't feel anything. Do what it takes to survive and win, regardless of how much it hurts others.

[Loredoctor]

I agree. Edelaith, you have said more than once that you find Covenant - at least in the early days - sociopathic and somehow inhuman, and that he regains his humaity as time goes on. I don't think Covenant was ever a sociopath; I think he was just very human from the beginning, and what you read as sociopathy I read as a deeply moral and emotional man pushed to the limits of both those traits. A sociopath pursues his or her own goals at the expense of others, but Covenant - though some of the manifestations may be similar - is pretty much the polar opposite, IMO.

And fret not, I was not and am not upset - just wrestling with your views

Agreed.

[theDespiser]

geez, you think any of these responses should be spoilers? weve gone over like the entire outcomes of the first six books practically...

[Avatar]

I think I will come over to the Think Tank. But don't count on me to present the best views! I'm just a fellow Donaldson fan, not a Literature Major.
Thanks for the invite, Avatar.

For someone so convinced of their own lack of eloquence, you do a pretty good job. You shouldn't need an invite either. Just come along and jump in. And don't neglect the Close either. Some pretty interesting discussions going on there too.

We don't care what you say, or how you say it, but that you say it. I look forward to you participating there as well.

--A

[amanibhavam]

The Close?

[Warmark]

forum in the Collective, maily discusses religious and such topics.

[amanibhavam]

thanks:-)

[Avatar]

What? You've been a Member for 3 years, and don't know about the Close?

Man, I knew the Watch was big, but surely...

(Actually, it recently turned out there are something like 40 seperate sub-forums here. Something for everybody.)

--Avatar

[danlo]

Make that close to 5 years (counting the old board) Av! Ami's been a member even longer I have!

[amanibhavam]

What? You've been a Member for 3 years, and don't know about the Close?

Man, I knew the Watch was big, but surely...

(Actually, it recently turned out there are something like 40 seperate sub-forums here. Something for everybody.)

--Avatar

Okay, okay *blushes*. I _have_ seen those subfora already, but as a) I usually stay away from religious discussions and b) it's time-consuming enough to read the TCTC, Runes and Gap sections already (I do not even have the energy to check the Dissecting... section) - I conveniently forgot about the existence of them, and when I saw you referring to The Close I thought it was some highly secret masonic lodge for inititaed KW-members:-)

[Warmark]

and when I saw you referring to The Close I thought it was some highly secret masonic lodge for inititaed KW-members:-)

No, thats the other section your no allowed into...