The Creator's Non-Appearance

Post by **drew** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:53 am

I think he'd rather his creation died, and Foul with it.
It was Foul (though Drool) who summoned Covenant in the first place, the only reason the Creator stepped in, was to be sure the Foul didn't get the white gold..he cared very little about what happened to the people.

Same for the 2nd chronicles, it was only because Foul was trying to get his hands on the Ring again, that the Creator nabbed Linden.

Obviously, he holds true to the fact that he CAN'T touch the Earth.
Too powerless for despair.

Post by **Usivius** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 12:25 pm

in my humble opinion, I think people are either over-estimating or under-estimating 'The Creator' figure. I think the old man's appearances and role in the books is fairly simple, and can be summed up in a quote from the animated series 'Futurama'. In an episode where the robot, Bender is floating in space and his butt becomes the location of a new species that has grown there, he finds that he is now in the role of a 'god'. In the end he inadvertantly causes the destruction of the species on his butt. Eventually he travells through space and actually meet God. Bender asks God how he does it? How does he balance wishing to help and allowing people make their own choices. God's response is, "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"

... there is an intentional contradiction in the quote, and the point is made well enough. And although this was a long-winded way to make my point, I beleive this is the way (unbeknownst to him) that SRD has approached any sort of 'creator' reference.

Post by **Avatar** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 12:45 pm

Hmm, I think both you and drew make interesting points. (And I quite like your analogy too.)

Drews suggestion that what the Creator cares about is not the inhabitants of the Land, but rather preventing Foul from getting the ring, is a real possibility. Anyone got anything to suggest that he does care?

--A

Post by **drew** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 1:44 pm

I get what Usivious is saying..but we're not talking about God; we're talking about the Creator.

Our God is quite often reffered to as God the Father...any many people beleive in a mothering goddess.

But this being that made the Lands world is not called the Father, or Mother, not the Caretaker, not the Gardian..he's the Creater.

He Created..that's it..no more. Creation is what he does. (I'm starting to sound like Lurch here, aren't I) He said it himself, he cannot break the barrier.

I'm not saying that he disslikes the people of his creation, how could he? What I mean is that he can't do anything about their situation, so he pretty much has to let them suffer through whatever the Despiser throws at them. But he CAN do things to stop Foul from getting the White Gold, and he feels that keeping Foul on the Earth, even if he torments his creation, is the greater good.

Perhaps he has numerous other Worlds he created, that he wants to keep the Grey Slayer away from.

Post by **Rincewind** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 2:55 pm

other worlds > land? NEVERR!!!

i think hes just too much of a wuss to challenge foul face to face and let the land live in peace...

Post by **CovenantJr** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 5:22 pm

Avatar wrote:Agreed on almost all points, Cj. Not having the books with me, I can't check, but did TC actually physically "see" the Creator? Or was it just a disembodied voice? Minutiae I know, but curious.

--Avatar

Other than the "old beggar" manifestation, no. When the Creator actually popped up and introduced himself properly, he was just a voice.

Rincewind wrote:i think hes just too much of a wuss to challenge foul face to face and let the land live in peace...

Or perhaps it's a "lesser of two evils" situation. As far as I can recall anyone knowing, Foul and the Creator are pretty much equal - assuming the various tales about Foul being the dark side/evil twin of the Creator are anywhere near accurate. If Foul breaks free and the Creator doesn't manage to defeat him, the universe (or a universe) will suffer; if Foul remains trapped within the Arch, his potential for devastation is at least limited. If the two beings are evenly matched, it's 50-50 as to whether the Creator would win a straight fight - plus Foul may well be more vicious. Not good odds.

Post by **drew** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 5:40 pm

Rincewind wrote:other worlds > land? NEVERR!!!

Yes, the Land was great, it was probebly the best Creation any Creator ever Created....and then Man came by, and chopped it all to Hell.
Then because of this chopping, the Ravers were born, and made it worse.

Then One guy came along, and the Land liked him, so it was seeming to get along with Mankind...then his great-grandson couldn't tell he dealt with the Devil, and had battles that completely spoiled the Land in places, and then he Desecrated what was left.

Don't forget, the creater created Everything..the Gilden trees, Andelain, Home, Elemensdene, the Ranyhyn, the One tree, the One Forest--and he trapped Foul there. But it wasn't Foul who wrecked the One Forest, it was Man.

Post by **Usivius** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 7:41 pm

Ahhh, but perhaps was it not the Despiser, whispering in the ears of man....

Post by **finn** » Fri Jun 03, 2005 5:41 am

Bit of a tangent, but don't the Haruchai also wear Ochre robes?

Post by **ur-bane** » Fri Jun 03, 2005 12:07 pm

Avatar wrote:Hmm, I think both you and drew make interesting points. (And I quite like your analogy too.)

Drews suggestion that what the Creator cares about is not the inhabitants of the Land, but rather preventing Foul from getting the ring, is a real possibility. Anyone got anything to suggest that he does care?

--A

The Creator cares about both.
If the Creator's only goal was keeping the ring from Foul, he could have erected a barrier between worlds that would have kept any summonsing from happening in the first place.
The Creator could easily have kept Covenant from ever going to the Land.

Warmark's suggestion of destroying the Arch and then destroying Foul is implausible.
Think about it: If the Creator could have destroyed Foul, why cast him down through the Arch onto the Earth in the first place?

It is not in the Creator's capacity to destroy Despite.
If Foul is considered by Covenant the part of him that hates (An incorrect assumption, in my estimation, lest Foul would have died when he struck Covenant down), is it not also plausible that Foul is also the part of the Creator that hates? Covenant was mistaken. Foul is the part of the Creator that hates.

The only way to truly rid the Land of their Despiser is for the Creator to kill himself, thus taking the part of him that Despises with him to his death.

Unless and until that happens, Foul will continue to torment the Land, or in the event of its destruction, the cosmos.

Post by **IrrationalSanity** » Fri Jun 03, 2005 12:22 pm

Wasn't the Creator so preoccupied with his creation that he didn't see "his brother" laboring beside him, sowing seeds of darkness in his gardens of light? Such that when the creator stepped back to look upon his work, he saw the things his brother had done and in his anger and dispair hurled him into the Earth, and sealed him within the Arch of Time. (I really do need to re-read this series so I can get these quotes right...)

Wasn't there also a provision that both Foul and the Creator needed to concur on just who would be allowed to pass through the arch?

Post by **Usivius** » Fri Jun 03, 2005 12:55 pm

about that... another thing we have to keep in mind, especially knowing SRD's view of only giving as much information as is necessasary to tell the story, is that these Creation stories (including the Worm at the World's end) are told by those livign on the earth in an attempt to understand things. It does not mean that they are LITERAL truth on how things actually happened. At the same time, it is quite possible that some or all of it IS true.
The point is, that the stories of this type that are told serve a greater purpose, and are not meant to be taken literally.

...or so I think... <shrug>

Post by **drew** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 12:07 pm

..Couldn't agree more.

The only glimpses we get from Creaton Stories, are just that..Stories.

The Giants, the Old Lords, the New Lords..even the Clave--they probebly all had some realism mixed in with Legend and Myth.

Post by **Avatar** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:14 am

Interesting and valid point Usivius, although I could counter by saying that as this is the only information that we have, we have to treat it as "truth" for the moment.

Ur-Bane, I really like this:

ur-bane wrote:The only way to truly rid the Land of their Despiser is for the Creator to kill himself, thus taking the part of him that Despises with him to his death.

Any final defeat of Foul would automatically mean that the Creator himself was gone as well. If they are simply two aspects of the same urge (and unaware of it at that) it might explain much.

--A

Post by **ur-bane** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:28 am

Usivius wrote:about that... another thing we have to keep in mind, especially knowing SRD's view of only giving as much information as is necessasary to tell the story, is that these Creation stories (including the Worm at the World's end) are told by those livign on the earth in an attempt to understand things. It does not mean that they are LITERAL truth on how things actually happened. At the same time, it is quite possible that some or all of it IS true.
The point is, that the stories of this type that are told serve a greater purpose, and are not meant to be taken literally.

...or so I think... <shrug>

While the stories themselves are meant to explain the unknown, and in our world certainly seem to be just that--stories, the existence of the Creator is undisputed, and SRD gives us proof of fact in at least one story. The Ppower That Preserves lays to rest any doubt about his existence. Thomas Covenant is met by the Land's creator after he defeats Foul. The Creator verifies information for us, the reader, about the truth of Foul's words, and the validity of the "tool" theory.

This meeting between Covenant and the Creator also validates the creation legend of The Creator casting his "enemy" [Foul] through the Arch to torment the Land.

SRD has told us that the Creator exists. SRD has told us that the Creator cast his "enemy" onto the earth. These are facts, and they are undisputed.

Post by **Avatar** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 12:13 pm

Good Post!

--A

Post by **High Lord Tolkien** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:19 pm

We've even got the Creator's children here too.
Try telling the Elohim that they are only a story.

Post by **Warmark** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:44 pm

Elohim, you are a story.
Easy

Post by **High Lord Tolkien** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:53 pm

Warmark wrote:Elohim, you are a story.
Easy

Warmark?
Warmark, are you there?
Has anyone seen Warmark?
All I see is this big pile of viscid spilth.....

Post by **Krilly** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 2:43 pm

I think it's pretty obvious. I didn't read the entire topic, so probably someone mentioned this... but put two and two together.

TC didn't see the Creator in the 2nd chronicles, rather he accosted Linden because 1: he already approached Covenant and 2: Linden was going to be the newcomer that was essential to the saving/damning of the Land.

Now in the final chronicles the same reasoning goes. Linden already had her little visit. So as someone nicely put it... the real question is WHO saw the man in the ochre robe? Someone who's new to the Land and essential to its fate... Jeremiah anyone? I think it's no coincidence he began constructing Mt. Thunder and Revelstone out of his Legos.

Or better yet, maybe it was Roger... perhaps it's not only the Despiser who has casted his lot with Thomas' troubled son. That would make for an interesting twist.

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

The Creator's Non-Appearance