I just watched ROTS

[kevinswatch]

And while I take some of the blame, it is mostly Lucas' fault for thinking that any Star Wars fan would have wanted to see a movie with a character like Jar Jar in it.-jay

[Damelon]

I thought the movie was good, but it could have been great.

Some impressions:

Yoda, a crisis councilor, is not.

It had the best non-action scene in any of the 6 movies. It was so subtle that I have a hard time believing that Lucas wrote it. I'm talking about the scene with Palpatine and Anakin talking in the auditorium during the Cirque du Soliel like performance. That scene was outstanding. It gave a reason to follow the dark side, a history of the sith, and a forshadowing of the end of the series. All in one scene. Outstanding!

I think it's main fault though was to try to make one feel too much sympathy to Anakin, even till the end of the movie. The movie was about him turning into Vader, once he turned he was became a bad guy and they didn't make that transition clear enough. They had the perfect chance in the movie to cut that tie:

Spoiler

The scene where Anakin/Vader turns his light saber on the younglings. How much more effective would have that scene been if, instead of showing Anakin/Vader from the back as he fired up the light saber, they would have showed a frontal view of him? Just a glint in his glance would have been enough to show that he would have gone to the dark side, and was unworthy of sympathy. The way they did it, yes you know that he did it, but aside from a quick mention from Obi-Wan, it wasn't brought up again. Imagine not seeing the series from start to finish, how much more moving that scene near the end of The Return of the Jedi would be when Vader turns on the Emperor? Now one would expect it.

Anyway, it was good, but not great.

[duchess of malfi]

This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker, forever.

The first dawn of light in your universe brings pain.

The light burns you. It will always burn you. Part of you will always lie upon the black glass beside a lake of fire while flames chew on your flesh.

You can hear yourself breathing. It comes hard, and harsh, and it scrapes nerves already raw, but you cannot stop it. You can never stop it. You cannot even slow it down.

You don't even have lungs anymore.

Mechanisms hard wired into your chest breathe for you. They will pump oxygen into your bloodstream forever.

Lord Vader? Lord Vader, can you hear me?

And you can't, not in the way you once did. Sensors in the shell that prisons your head trickle meaning directly into your brain.

You open your scorched-pale eyes; optical sensors integrate light and shadow into a hideous silmulcrum of the world around you.

Or perhaps the simulcrum is perfect, and it is the world that is hideous.

Padme? Are you here? Are you all right? you try to say, but another voice speaks for you, out of the vocabulator that serves you for burned-away lips and tongue and throat.

"Padme! Are you here? Are you all right?'

I'm sorry, Lord Vader. I'm afraid she died. It seems in your anger, you killed her.

This burns hotter than the lava had.

"No...no, it is not possible!"

You loved her. You will always love her. You could never will her death.

Never.

But you remember.

You remember all of it.

You remember the dragon that you brought Vader forth from your heart to slay. You remember the cold venom in Vader's blood. You remember the furnace of Vader's fury, and the black hatred of seizing her throat to silence her lying mouth -

And there is one blazing moment in which you finally understand that there was no dragon. That there was no Vader. That there was only you. Only Anakin Skywalker.

That it was all you. Is you.

Only you.

You did it.

You killed her.

You killed her because, finally, when you could have saved her, when you could have gone away with her, when you could have been thinking about her, you were thinking about yourself.

It is in this blazing moment that you finally understand the trap of the dark side, the final cruelty of the Sith -

Because now your self is all you will ever have.

And you rage and scream and reach through the Force to crush the shadow who has destroyed you, but you are so far less now than what you were, you are more than half machine, you are like a painter gone blind, a composer gone deaf, you can remember where the power was but the power you can touch is only a memory, and so with all your world-destroying fury it is only droids around you that implode, and equipment, and the table on which you were strapped shatters, and in the end, you cannot touch the shadow.

In the end, you do not even want to.

In the end, the shadow is all you have left.

Because the shadow understands you, the shadow forgives you, the shadow gather you unto itself -

And within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame.

This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.

Forever...

[matrixman]

Wow! All these tremendous quotes from duchess and Fist tell me that the novel is worth checking out. The writing has an exciting, virtuoso flow to it. Nice!

[Avatar]

Yeah, I'm definitely gonna be on the lookout for it too.

--A

[Revan]

Wow! All these tremendous quotes from duchess and Fist tell me that the novel is worth checking out. The writing has an exciting, virtuoso flow to it. Nice!

The book is amazing, so much better than the film. And I loved the film, so that's saying something. You need to read this book to fully understand Anakins fall to the Dark Side.

[Loredoctor]

But you shouldn't have to read a book to understand the movie. Good films don't work that way.

[Avatar]

True enough. But as a medium for description, books are always better than movies at the "internal" processes. Movies, unless they resort to the "mental voice", are forced to make do with the facial expression of the actor, and hope that it conveys the intent.

Simply put, it's a failure that many movies have in common, not just RotS.

--Avatar

[Loredoctor]

But a failure that could have been rectified: simply episode 3 should have been spaced across two movies. Just because it doesn't work in others doesn't excuse it. It just doesn't work - Anakin's conversion is weak.

[Avatar]

I certainly agree that that was the most significant failing on it's part. And that it could have been better handled across 2 movies. Even though we do see "foreshadowings" in AotC, it still didn't feel well enough explained. (Because it wasn't.)

--A

[Loredoctor]

That's how I feel.

[Revan]

One of the things I thought about is the fact that the lightsaber duels will seem to slow down if a person sits through all six films at once. Vader/Kenobi's duel are (probably) blindingly fast with the ROTS where as 20 sumpthin odd years later they're relatively slow and at times clumsy, getting slower in our old age are we eh Jedis?? Yet of course the way the New Hope was filmed and technology back then....

I still have a big huge bunch of pet peeves with the prequels and have stated them in another post elsewhere in the forum's archives, so I won't redux them here.

Newest ones have emerged... In ROTJ Luke asks Leia what she remembers about her mother. She states that she doesn't remember much... "she died when I was very young." Luke prods her and she says that "she was very beautiful but sad." To me this implies that Padame died when Leia was about ohh, I dunno, four or five yrs old (earth time). This would make sense given that a child that young would have these vauge memories of a loved one.
Someone I talked to who is a HUGE fan of the prequels said that when the Jedi twins were born Luke had his eyes closed and Leia's eyes were opened so that she was able to see her mother and have the memory implanted into her brain. Now I don't know about you but I'll be damned if I can remember the first five minutes of MY life on this planet let alone anything beyond two or three years of age. My friend of course conviently argued that because Leia was imbuded with the force she was able to have the insight and knowledge that this is her mother and that she was able to disconcern her emotional state. Geez having just given a difficult birth to twins and STILL feel sad that your husband and your babies father is going around killing people and being the biggest bad ass in the galaxy. Wow!
Of course it seems that human biology doesn't fit in here as research has shown that newborn babies are basically light blind, meaning that everything is a big hazy blur and that weeks/months later babies eyes haven't adjusted to "flip" images perceived by the brain to what we call right side up. So physicially it's impossible for Leia to have even SEEN her mother let alone remember her.
Explaining THAT to my friend then they recanted saying it was Bail Organa's wife/ Leia's adopted mother who was SAD and died when she was very young. Of course my friend should've been glad that I didn't have a lightsaber of my own because I would've decapitated him on the spot for being so argumentaively stupid.

Another peeve. In "A New Hope" Obi-wan specifically tells Luke that "A young Jedi by the name of Darth Vader, he was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil. ...He hunted down and destroyed the Jedi Knights..."

From my reading of the novel it doesn't seem that he kills any Jedi's except those in the academy/temple. Sure he killed a lot of them but didn't go around the galaxy hunting them down and killing them. The Clones did that more or less.

The impressions given by the original trilogy have seemingly been forgotten by the prequels. Thus encouraging my belief that Lucas did NOT write the original story.

Lucas is a good director, has a good camera eye and understands action.
He just sucks as a writer/thinker/creator. He took a great opera and ran with it but somewhere along down the line he jumped off the track and started running nilly-willy through the fields.

Totally agree that the young Anakin would've been better had they implied that he was a bitter young kid hardened by a cruel master (that Cheech Marin sounding Watto) and that he should've been a mean kid, surly and all that. No he was this sweet widdle boy who was good with his hands. But then Anakin would've been more BELIEVABLE if he was cast by Hayden Christensen at the age he appears in Clones. Being a surly teenager and about the right age for Padame in Phantom. The age differences are WAY too great as it stands now.

A friend of mine who is a mother goes nuts whenever she thinks about the plot hole of Anakin's mother letting him go at 9 years old with a complete stranger! Jedi or not I mean what mother in her right mind would? Oh wait! She was a slave and thus had no choice and would rather prefer her son who is freed to be away from the cruel and mean Watto.
I go nuts when I think about the line "...There was no father." by Anakin's mother when questioned by Qui Gonn. What, the chosen one is supposed to be some sort of Messianic figure??

Lastly "The Chosen One" Supposedly to bring "balance to the Force."
Just what does that supposed to mean anyway. Not that Anakin/Vader succeeded did he? Balance of what? Good and Dark sides? If that were so then Vader should've been a good guy some of the time shouldn't he? Kinda like, helping an old lady across a busy street... then slicing her in half with his saber.

Seems to me that Luke fits the title "Chosen One" because he was able to handle the dark side emotions while still doing the right thing by refusing to kill his father and deny Sidious a new apprentice. Almost a Dune-like plot line of Paul Atraties being the "chosen-one" in his macroverse or whatever.

Excellent post!

The Chosen One is Anakin, he is far more powerful in terms of sheer potential than Luke, or indeed any other Jedi. Read the books, and this will prove it to you. The Chosen One *isn’t* Luke; Luke would have died at Palpatines hands if not for Anakin. The Chosen One was meant to destroy the Sith, and what did Anakin/Vader do? Precisely that. Luke didn’t kill Palpatine, and let’s face it, from what we saw from Revenge of the Sith, he couldn’t have.

Episode III is definitely more emotionally engaging than I & II. The scenes between Padme and Anakin were more expressive than before, and I actually found myself gripped by Anakin's descent to the dark side. I think Haydensen finally comes into his own and does a credible job of portraying a Jedi spiralling out of control and turning into something frightening.

yeah, For once, he was allowed to act, whereas in the previous episodes, the writing by George Lucas was so shoddy, that it didn’t really allow the actors to stretch their abilities. Part of the reason I’ve disliked the whole prequels things is the shoddy acting, I mean to be honest, all these prequels could have been so much better than the other films, but they’re not, you know why? Because George Lucas can’t write good interactions between actors.

The collapse of the Obi-Wan/Anakin partnership was a heartbreaking thing, amid all the other tragic happenings. What a great fighting team they had become--as seen in their battle against General Grievous. Between them, Anakin and Obi-Wan would have been an almost unstoppable duo, especially since the Force was so strong with them. It makes Obi-Wan's feeling that he failed Anakin that much more moving. What wasted potential...

yeah, it’s even more tragic in the book. The book shows the amazing partnership between the two very well. Right at the beginning, in fact. Ewan’s acting when on Mustafar was amazing. His reaction when Anakin falls limbless was great.

The slaughter of the Jedi knights was well-conveyed, as others have said. It's chilling how the Clone warriors of the Republic suddenly turn into cold-blooded murderers via a simple command, almost like flicking a switch. "Hey, we were just following orders. Sieg Heil!"

Yeah, that was amazing. I loved the Jedi killing part, it was really powerful. And amazingly done, which cannot often be said of Lucas.

The Padme/Anakin/Obi-Wan confrontation on the molten planet was for me one of the most powerful scenes in all the SW movies. I felt sympathy for all three of them. I could just sense the emotional/spiritual abyss opening up around them. There might as well have been a sign stuck somewhere among the lava pits: Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter.

Yeah, I loved that in the book as well as in the film. I loved the part where Vader has that avid look in his eyes when he talks about over throwing Palpatine. Saying that they could rule together. Good acting, for once. And if you think about it, Padme might of actually succeeded in turning Anakin back from Vader if Obi-Wan hadn’t intervened.

I side with Darth Revan.

Well, you’re only human

Actually, the human body turns out to be more resilient than you might have thought. In Jeanne Cavelos's book, The Science of Star Wars (all SW fans should check it out, heh), she goes into detail (yeah, it's gruesome) about what would happen if you were to fall into lava. Well, you wouldn't necessarily be a goner. If you got out quickly enough, you would survive (and in the movie, Anakin doesn't even actually come into contact with the lava, though he does lay on the hot slope above it for a while...which is, er, not good). Cavelos mentions a case of two geologists who fell into lava at the Hawaii Volcano Observatory. The lava wasn't very deep, and they managed to get out quickly. After hospitalization for their burns, they both recovered without serious permanent injury.

You’ll understand that I have no wish to test that theory…

I think we can finally truly share what Lucas has always imagined and was never able to truly convey until now.

It is known that Lucas made it up as he went along; Vader was never a tragic figure in ANH. I don't mean to attack you, but Lucas gets far too much credit.

Though I understand the source of your comment I feel the need to explain my point of view. The tragedy of Anakin Skywalker, whether you think Lucas is telling the truth about the history of his development of the Star Wars storyline or not, has been around in an understandable form since the script for Return of the Jedi was completed. I am an amateur fiction writer and I know how I feel about the characters I’ve created. There is a story that will appear in the Kevin’s Watch Anthology that features a character that relates a tragedy from his past. The character explains the event in basic terms but with emotional distress. As the creator I “felt his pain” so to speak and only I understand the particulars of the event that I chose not to reveal in the character’s narrative. I look at Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker in a similar way. I know that Lucas had to have known and felt the full tragedy of Anakin as early as 1982 or thereabouts as he finished the screenplay of Jedi. (If you believe Lucas you may subscribe to the notion that he had the makings for a full three part story back before he began filming Episode IV but only had the funding to create the first act and therefore he knew from that moment about the Anakin Tragedy at least in its most basic form.) What I’m saying is that long before the prequels began, we knew Darth Vader. We knew he was a good person before his turn to the dark side. He fostered two children that were hidden from him. He helped to hunt down and destroy the Jedi. There were many things about the character we’ve always known but I personally couldn’t appreciate the full tragedy until experiencing the prequels (especially Episode III). If Lucas is anything like me, he must have been filled with emotion as he originally crafted the Vader/Skywalker character in his mind and until last Sunday I couldn’t fully appreciate what a heartbreaking and pitiable figure Anakin Skywalker truly is.

An amazing post TOM. Anakin has been so misguided… that is what caused him to be evil. But I never did think he was evil, I mean he never enjoyed being evil. I mean he never tortured people for fun, like Palpatine would probably do. He’s just a broken man. That’s what strikes me about him anyways.

There was something I found odd. Before seeing the film, I borrowed Darth's copy of the game. At one point near the end of the game, there's a scene (acted by McGregor and Christensen, so I assumed it was taken from the film) where Obi-Wan says (to paraphrase) "I wasn't prepared for training someone like you!" and Anakin retorts "That's your failing, not mine." I kept my eyes peeled for this in the film because I thought it was a good scene, but it wasn't there. Puzzling.

Yeah, come to think on it, that part in the game was excellent. It would have been nice to hear that…sadly that wasn’t to be.

Watched ROTS last night.

What did I think?

Meh.

I would have to agree... It was very meh. They should have called it the Mehmpire Strikes Back.

Like you said. It was the best of the new trilogy, but that's not saying much.

Padme should have died in the first movie.

At least Jar Jar didn't have any lines. Thank God.-jay

Spoiler

Oh yeah. And like everyone else said, hearing James Earl Jones as Darth Vader yelling "Noooo!" was just the lamest thing of all time.

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!! Jar Jar did say one word… I must say that nearly ruined the movie for me.

Instead we get 5 dreadful minutes of a Vader with Parkinsons-like symptoms and a horrible scream.

ROFLMAO!!!!

heh, I thought the movie was excellent… you’re such a bore Loremaster.

In the book, Palpatine has been working on Anakin since he came to Coruscant. Particularly in feeding his ambitions, and those ambitions were a fairly large part of him turning to the dark side, as well as a lot of tension between he and the Jedi, and the cause of his distrust and disillusionment with them. The stuff with his fear for Padme was sort of the last straw.

I don't think that came off very clearly in the movie, though.

Eventually (if I can ever find time), I hope to see the movie again. When I saw it I was so disappointed about how much of the good stuff in the book they left out, I probably did not give the movie a fair shot as a piece of art in its own right.

yeah, good post. Palpatine has been planning for Anakin to be his student for years. The book shows why Anakin fell to the Dark Side so much better than the film. that is why I think reading the book helped with me. Because I knew what was going on and so forth. And I wasn't much bothered about loads being left out because I read the Attack of the Clones novel and *loads* of things were in the book that weren't in the films. In fact two whole plots are in the novel for Ep 2 that aren't in the film, as well as loads of other scenes. So i fully expected there to be loads missing. Which helped as well.

Spoiler

The scene where Anakin/Vader turns his light saber on the younglings. How much more effective would have that scene been if, instead of showing Anakin/Vader from the back as he fired up the light saber, they would have showed a frontal view of him? Just a glint in his glance would have been enough to show that he would have gone to the dark side, and was unworthy of sympathy. The way they did it, yes you know that he did it, but aside from a quick mention from Obi-Wan, it wasn't brought up again. Imagine not seeing the series from start to finish, how much more moving that scene near the end of The Return of the Jedi would be when Vader turns on the Emperor? Now one would expect it.

yeah, I definitly thought they should have made him more evilo. Your suggestion is a good one... I have said many times that they should have at least shown Anakin actually killing them. But I never considered a glint in the eye. Good one.

overall there has been too much bitching. Foul and Loremaster arguing, take a pill. You're arguing about someone saying "no". Honestly. Loremaster, Lighten up, in this case, I agree with Foul. I understand you don't like the film; and giving your opinion of it, but try and see the good side.

[Revan]

These are the scenes that have been cut out of the film that were in the book. (Not to mention loads of things that can only be put on paper)

Revenge of the Sith Omissions: Lucas has left the following scenes out of the final edit of Episode 3. Some of these scenes may appear as deleted scenes on the Star Wars Episode 3 Revenge of the Sith DVD.

# 6, 7, 8 - 14, 25, 30, 32, 37 - 41: Federation Cruiser scenes cut (including Grievous killing Shaak Ti, Jedi using their light sabers to escape Grievous, underwater swim, climb through shaft, many of R2-D2's hangar gags and many Palpatine cliffhangers)

# 48: Mace Windu greets Palpatine and the Jedi right after the crash landing on Coruscant

# 56: Yoda, Obi-Wan and Mace discuss the dark side in Yoda's quarters

# 60: Bail Organa and fellow Senators speak about the Senate

# 68 - 69: Obi-Wan tells Padme of his worries about Anakin and that he knows they're in love

# 71: Meeting with Organa, Mon Mothma and Padme

# 73: Anakin informs Palpatine that Obi-Wan soon will have Grievous' head

# 74: Jar Jar Binks greets Anakin at Senate

# 75: Anakin confronts Padme

# 76 - 77: Republic cruiser arrives at Utapau

# 83: Obi-Wan chooses his lizard, Boga

# 86: Mace talks to Yoda on Kashyyyk, telling him of his plans to arrest Palpatine

# 88 - 89: Padme presents to Palpatine the Senators' petition

# 93: Utapau windmill

# 121: "Crazy" Yoda and Chewbacca ambush an AT-ST

# 176: Yoda lands on Dagobah

[Loredoctor]

For the record:

I do see that movie has a good side - in fact many positive elements. I also see that it has its faults. I also admit I am a very harsh viewer when it comes to movies. But my whole family is like that; my brother and I are known as intellectual snobs. I did enjoy the film.

[Revan]

He also cut out all the talk between Dooku and Palpatine. Where they were talking how Skywalker was the perfect man for the job, and in order to lure him, Dooku would have to kill Obi-Wan and work Anakin into such a frenzy that he breaks through his Jedi Training.

[Loredoctor]

Dooku died too soon.

[Revan]

he died in the manner Palpatine wanted him to die. So that Anakin could have his first cold blooded kill.

[Loredoctor]

Yes, but they should have called the police! He should have taken a restraining order out against Anakin!

[CovenantJr]

Hmm. I ordered the book after Fist's hearty praise, but that passage Duchess quoted above got on my nerves somewhat. Stilted, cliched and inaccurate (when I say inaccurate, I'm referring to the bit about needing a voice-generating thing because Vader's own throat, lungs etc have burned away...but he quite clearly speaks to Luke sans helmet, with his own mouth, in ROTJ). Still, all I can do is wait and see.

As for Dooku... It's disappointed me to see two of Sidious' apprentices fall so easily. Ok, Maul killed Jinn, but then he was lopped in half by a lout with bad hair. Dooku was a sinister, imposing figure in Clones, but he popped off fairly easily in ROTS. Not entirely dissimilar to having the Emperor die in ROTJ by falling down some steps - just a lame death for a villain who deserves better.





(Incidentally, I thought I'd share my assessment of Vader's "Nooo" as I phrased it to Gart:
"Frankenstein's Vader, shambling free of his manacles and crying "No" like he's just dropped a yoghurt"
)

[Warmark Jay]

But I never did think he was evil, I mean he never enjoyed being evil.

I really liked Ep. III, thought it was almost as good as "Empire", but I gotta disagree with this. And I think it undermines Lucas' desire to make Anakin/Vader a sympathetic character.

Vader is a snarky guy in the OT. "I find your lack of faith disturbing." "You weren't on any mercy mission this time." "Apology accepted, Captain Needa." You can almost see the smirk behind the mask. The Vader of the OT is not a reluctant lackey. He's a power-mad villain.

Compounding this are his actions. He talks about killing Tusken women and children in Ep. II. He executes Dooku. He kills a bunch of "younglings". He kills his pregnant wife. He tortures his daughter. He chops off his son's hand. And then there's the whole Death Star thing. It's not like the guy turned to the Dark Side and embarked upon a career in hotwiring landspeeders. He doesn't turn BAD, he turns EVIL. He's got a LOT of blood on his hands, and we're expected to put that all aside. And when he finally does return to grace, it's all about him. "Tell your sister you were right about me." Quite a contrite statement! (How about, "And tell her I'm sorry about the torture droid thing. Oh, and sorry for freezing the boyfriend. He seems nice. Oh, and sorry about blowing up her adoptive parents and her home planet.")

In RoTS, Anakin does horrid things for (perhaps) the right reasons - but as a viewer, I never felt that this dawned on him, even in that final "Nooooo!" There's no epiphany that HIS actions have led to the death of his wife, his friends, and the destruction of those principles that he was fighting to preserve. How much more effective would it have been to have Vader's last line in the movie a simple, defeated "What have I done?"