I just watched ROTS

[Edinburghemma]

I am back. I enjoyed it...on the whole. It was certainly alot better than the other 2.

[I'm Murrin]

In RoTS, Anakin does horrid things for (perhaps) the right reasons - but as a viewer, I never felt that this dawned on him, even in that final "Nooooo!" There's no epiphany that HIS actions have led to the death of his wife, his friends, and the destruction of those principles that he was fighting to preserve. How much more effective would it have been to have Vader's last line in the movie a simple, defeated "What have I done?"

Ah, but isn't that the point? The whole reason he ended up where he did was because he could never admit when he was wrong, or when he wasn't good enough. His scream is more for having lost Padme than for having killed her himself, I think. He was very selfish in his actions in this film - he tried to save Padme to keep himself from hurting, not her.

[Warmark Jay]

Ah, but isn't that the point? The whole reason he ended up where he did was because he could never admit when he was wrong, or when he wasn't good enough. His scream is more for having lost Padme than for having killed her himself, I think. He was very selfish in his actions in this film - he tried to save Padme to keep himself from hurting, not her.

That's all true - but it rings hollow if, as Lucas himself has said, the combined story is really about the fall and redemption of Anakin. After watching the OT again last week, I didn't come away feeling that Anakin had redeemed himself (not like Covenant - THAT guy knows redemption!) as much as switched teams at the end of "Jedi".

I chalk it up to two things. One, Lucas not leaving himself a whole lot of logical "wiggle room" in "Star Wars" (if Vader is the Emperor's number two guy and the 2nd most powerful Jedi in the galaxy, why does he take orders from Tarkin?) and "Empire", and two, Lucas' limited talents as a writer and director.

[CovenantJr]

Vader is a snarky guy in the OT. "I find your lack of faith disturbing." "You weren't on any mercy mission this time." "Apology accepted, Captain Needa." You can almost see the smirk behind the mask. The Vader of the OT is not a reluctant lackey. He's a power-mad villain.

Well quite. Now you come to mention it, this could be why I've never felt entirely comfortable with Anakin's dependency on Palpatine. Certainly, Palpatine was his master even in the original trilogy, but despite that, Vader was always a master in his own right. He was strong, decisive, in command. Having said that, it could come from the twenty-odd year gap - and possibly from being totally unhinged from having most of his body burnt away.

[Warmark Jay]

Certainly, Palpatine was his master even in the original trilogy, but despite that, Vader was always a master in his own right.

Welllll...not really. In "A New Hope", Tarkin is Vader's boss. He orders Vader around (yells at him, at one point, when Vader is choking Smary Imperial Admiral - "Release him!") and in that same scene seems to be the guy In The Know, telling the assembled staff that he just received word that the Emperor dissolved the Senate and gave the Governors direct control over their territories. So Tarkin also got a promotion.

[Avatar]

Good posts folks. I agree with Warmark Jay abot this at least:

I didn't come away feeling that Anakin had redeemed himself (not like Covenant - THAT guy knows redemption!) as much as switched teams at the end of "Jedi".

It could be argued, but I still agree. And as to the mention Darth made of Anakin's offer to Padme to rule the galaxy with him, he made the same offer to Luke as well.

(And an awful lot of hand-chopping goes on in the SW universe, doesn't it?)

--A

[CovenantJr]

(And an awful lot of hand-chopping goes on in the SW universe, doesn't it?)

I noticed that too. Lucas obviously has a complex about losing appendages

[Avatar]

--A

[Warmark Jay]

All grousing about the "redemption" issue aside (and despite that, I still think it shows a higher level of thematic sophistication than most genre movies) - I was actually struck by the fact that Lucas doesn't cut the Jedi any slack about their complicity in Anakin's downfall. There's a lot of irony in Obi-wan's comment about Sith thinking in "extremes" - for what are the Jedi if not conservative extremists themselves? They expressly forbid love amongst their ranks, view passion as a path to evil, and patronize Anakin - despite his abilities - because he is a mere youth. Just as Palpatine's single-mindedness allows him to rise to power, the Jedi Council's is their ultimate undoing. And here is where Lucas does a good job at coming full circle. Ultimately, Luke's selfish opposition to Obi-wan and Yoda's thinking releases Anakin. I say selfish because Luke's goal is to save the life of one man - his father - at the risk of the lives of his friends and indeed the galaxy.

[Nathan]

(And an awful lot of hand-chopping goes on in the SW universe, doesn't it?)

I noticed that too. Lucas obviously has a complex about losing appendages

I would have thought that in a universe where robotic prostheses are easy to come by, and there are weapons able to easily chop a hand off that a lot of hand-chopping would go on, especially in life-threatening battles where chopping off your opponent's hand renders him pretty effectively powerless.

[dlbpharmd]

All grousing about the "redemption" issue aside (and despite that, I still think it shows a higher level of thematic sophistication than most genre movies) - I was actually struck by the fact that Lucas doesn't cut the Jedi any slack about their complicity in Anakin's downfall. There's a lot of irony in Obi-wan's comment about Sith thinking in "extremes" - for what are the Jedi if not conservative extremists themselves? They expressly forbid love amongst their ranks, view passion as a path to evil, and patronize Anakin - despite his abilities - because he is a mere youth. Just as Palpatine's single-mindedness allows him to rise to power, the Jedi Council's is their ultimate undoing. And here is where Lucas does a good job at coming full circle. Ultimately, Luke's selfish opposition to Obi-wan and Yoda's thinking releases Anakin. I say selfish because Luke's goal is to save the life of one man - his father - at the risk of the lives of his friends and indeed the galaxy.

Excellent post, Warmark Jay!

[Revan]

All grousing about the "redemption" issue aside (and despite that, I still think it shows a higher level of thematic sophistication than most genre movies) - I was actually struck by the fact that Lucas doesn't cut the Jedi any slack about their complicity in Anakin's downfall. There's a lot of irony in Obi-wan's comment about Sith thinking in "extremes" - for what are the Jedi if not conservative extremists themselves? They expressly forbid love amongst their ranks, view passion as a path to evil, and patronize Anakin - despite his abilities - because he is a mere youth. Just as Palpatine's single-mindedness allows him to rise to power, the Jedi Council's is their ultimate undoing. And here is where Lucas does a good job at coming full circle. Ultimately, Luke's selfish opposition to Obi-wan and Yoda's thinking releases Anakin. I say selfish because Luke's goal is to save the life of one man - his father - at the risk of the lives of his friends and indeed the galaxy.

What a post.

I thought the exact same thing when Obi-Wan said "Only Sith deal in absolutes". Not true, the Jedi see in absolutes. And are unable to think any other way. Yoda never considers the possibility that Anakin can be redeemed, he just says "kill the Sith, we must". Not, "Obi-Wan, there might be some chance of saving Anakin". Jedi believe the Sith are irrdeembly evil, also wrong. That is why the Jedi are so... stale, so dry. They believe they can't love, and have any passions. But that's life. They cut themselves off. The Sith don't. So if you actually stop to think, the Sith are more justified in their point of view than the Jedi are.

[duchess of malfi]

I'm very sleepy this morning, so what I'm about to say might not make sense...

Anakin was supposed to bring balance to the Force.

He does this through the destruction of both the Jedi and the Sith.

In his fight with Palpatine at the Senate, Yoda realizes pretty much what Warmark Jay said. He realize that the Sith had changed and become more powerful, and that the Jedi had remained unchanged and complacent. He realizes that the Jedi must change as an order.

This leads to Padme's babies being raised as normal people who feel normal emotions rather than as Jedi were usually raised.

And Luke is trained more like a Sith than a Jedi -- his training begins when he is much, much older than a Jedi youngling...

Now, in Episodes 4, 5, and 6 of Star Wars, we see Obi-Wan and Yoda teaching Luke as a Sith Might: they teach him to embrace emotion, embrace friends and allies, and embrace the world around him ... and to beware the dark emotions.
In other words, they teach him all the secrets of power, the ability to become either a Jedi Knight or a Sith Lord, and leave the choice of which path he will take, to him.

In the later books (set after Return of the Jedi), the Jedi marry and have relatively normal lives, with much more room for love, passion, and attachment than the Jedi in the the three prequel movies...

[dlbpharmd]

I agree with much of this, except the part about embracing friends.....Yoda actually tried to get Luke to sacrifice his friends at Bespin.

[duchess of malfi]

Yes, he knew Luke was not strong enough to take on Vader, so did not want Luke to go -- but, on the other hand -- Yoda did allow it in the end.

And at Bespin Luke learned some pretty important lessons. I do not think that the Empire would have fallen, if not for the lessons Luke learned there.

[CovenantJr]

Some good posts!

Duchess - I hadn't thought of that, and my mind boggles at the notion. Anakin did in fact essentially wipe the slate clean.

Warmark Jay/Revan - It's been pretty clear throughout the prequels that the Jedi are a stale and antiquated order in many ways. And their arrogance is truly colossal; they actually believe they know, rather than being open to learning or new points of view. I suppose the Jedi as they were had to come to an end sooner or later, and it was just a matter of how quickly they became obsolete. To quote a song, "How does it feel to be outstripped by the pace of cultural change?"

Something I do feel I should point out, though, is...basically Superman. Kenobi, Skywalker, Windu, even Yoda - the Jedi are a clique ( ) of super-powered action men, flinging Force powers around like exhilerated children. This seems to me to be more a Sith approach. The impression I always received from the Alec Guiness incarnation of Obi-Wan, and from Qui-Gon to a point, was that the Jedi were very much like Earthsea wizards: The more power they are able to weild, the less they do so. The wise and experienced masters, such as Obi-Wan and Yoda, use the Force only when they have no other choice, using more mundane means as much as possible.
This seems contradictory to the "just blast them with the Force and to hell with the consequences" approach they adopt in the prequels. For such a seemingly non-interventionist group, they don't do half measures.

[duchess of malfi]

I agree with much of this, except the part about embracing friends.....Yoda actually tried to get Luke to sacrifice his friends at Bespin.

Now that I am a bit more awake, I wanted to talk about that a bit more.

What you said is certainly true. But, as I pointed out, in the end, Yoda did allow Luke to go to Bespin.

And that shows how much Yoda really was determined to have the Jedi change.

In the prequels can you imagine Yoda allowing a padawan (or even a knight) go off on his own like that? Back in the Temple days? Or any of the padawans or knights (except for Anakin) even wanting to, once they knew their Master (or the Council) did not wish them to?

Yoda have Luke his advice -- but he also gave Luke the respect and trust to allow him to make up his mind and to follow his heart. I think that is something that Yoda learned from Anakin -- perhaps if the Jedi had respected and trusted Anakin he might not have turned...

[Variol Farseer]

One of the most brilliant bits in Empire is when Luke is about to leave for Bespin, and Obi-wan's ghost warns him, 'I cannot help you there.' And Luke tells him he knows, but he has to go anyway. Suddenly Yoda's Muppet face bends into an expression we haven't seen before, a wide-eyed, almost gobsmacked look: Luke is showing resources and grit that he hadn't expected.

I think the fact that Luke was willing to take the task on alone, and pay the entire penalty if he failed, was a big — and unexpected — step in his maturation.

In the end, I think it might be fair to say that Luke was not only the last of the Jedi, but the last of the Sith as well. If Anakin 'brought balance to the Force', it was above all through the effect he had on his son, for both good and evil.

[variol son]

And remember, when Luke returns to Dagobah in ROTJ to finish his training, Yoda tells him that it is already complete; that he is all but a Jedi and that all he must do now is face Vader.

So maybe Luke would have learned the lessons he needed to learn whether he stayed on Dagobah or left to try and rescue his friends. The difference was that if he left, Obi-wan could not help him. He could be defeated; he could even die.

This would mean that Yoda's last hope would be lost, but it would also mean that he would lose his padawan; probably the only person that he has formed an emotional bond with in years.

So in a way, Yoda's desire for Luke to stay may have also been selfish.

Sum sui generis
Vs

[matrixman]

Excellent posts, everyone! Nice insights into Yoda here!

One of the most brilliant bits in Empire is when Luke is about to leave for Bespin, and Obi-wan's ghost warns him, 'I cannot help you there.' And Luke tells him he knows, but he has to go anyway. Suddenly Yoda's Muppet face bends into an expression we haven't seen before, a wide-eyed, almost gobsmacked look: Luke is showing resources and grit that he hadn't expected.

Yes, a great reaction from Yoda! I think that in Episode III, the CG Yoda finally approaches the "rubbery" quality of the puppet Yoda in Episode V. It was the opinion of an article in my local paper that the CG Yoda in ROTS is just as good, if not better, than Gollum in the LOTR films. I'm biased here, of course, but I think Yoda here does rival Gollum. And Yoda is cuddlier.

I really felt sad for Yoda when I watched Empire Strikes Back again in light of the events of ROTS. For him to have felt that he personally failed to defeat Palpatine (and failed to preserve the Jedi order) must have been such an awful burden for him to bear, though I don't know if he's the sort who would dwell on it. With 900 years behind him, he must have a lot of things on which he could dwell. Yes, I can see how Yoda's desire to have Luke stay would be partly a selfish one. It's nice to have someone REAL to talk to, instead of Obi-Wan's disembodied voice all the time.