A Request for Tolerance

[Mr. Majestic]

I don't think the person who wrote the quiz really knew the Bible.
Most of them are OT-specific, too...if they knew the Bible as they should they'd know that under the New Covenant most of the prohibitions about food and the like were done away with.

Really. Do you know your Bible well enough to tell us where to find the lifting of those prohibitions?

Sure, and the goal of most of Pauls writings was to standardize the practices of the various Christian churches.

And as for Constantine, he had the same goal: One God, One Church, One Empire. Of course, the fact that he didn't actually join the church he'd created until he was on his deathbed is pretty telling... Especially since the Bible we have now was edited to suit his needs!

It sure seems like a lot of baiting going on to me. You don't know about the New Covenant but you know about Paul the Apostle enough to make that assertion.

Personally, I don't understand the intolerance. I mean it seems like you are really, really, really against Christians. I don't have the time for it, but I wonder what the sum of all your posts turns out to equal. Would we find that you are extremely intolerant of Christians? Like I said, I'm not going to waste my time with it. But the few posts I've read seem very heated and pointed. As Yoda would say, There's much anger in you.

I read the whole thread this time. I was quite delighted to see that what I would have said was said. And a little surprised that it didn't seem to matter at all. If someone said the right thing, then part of their post was snipped from the rest and the retort would be, yeah but what about THIS! And that question would be answered and the post would be twisted and some weird curveball thrown in from nowhere, but what about THIS!

What's the big deal about Christians anyway? Everyone preaches tolerance. There's even a post on how TOLERANT we've all become in this age & how proud everyone is because of it.

Hi, you're black. Great. Let me shake your hand.
Hi, you're gay. Great. Let me shake your hand.
Hi, oh nevermind, your a Christian.
Hi, you just had an abortion. Great. Let me shake your hand.
LOL!

Well that's a little tongue in cheek, but you get the picture. It seems like it's okay to be tolerant of everybody except Christians. Doesn't that seem just a little odd?

I'm curious how well that website link & craftily laid "poll" would have been if it was an anti-black site talking about black people.

19. How often did black people bathe in 1870 (after they were freed)?

a. twice a week
b. twice a month
c. twice a year
d. twice a day

c. twice a year
Black people rarely bathed. Some never bathed. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

And it would have been completely out of context too, just like this anti-Christian site was out of context, because white people didn't bathe all that often. I think it was once a month. I don't remember when exactly the bathtub became mainstream, but it sure wasn't mainstream in 1870.

----

But the point would be to make black people look like freaks, idiots, and outcasts. And I just don't see how the Watch would allow that anymore than you would allow a post like this about gay people and how much gay people are freaks, idiots, and outcasts. But for some reason it's just fine to make Christians out to be stupid, useless, and bumbling.

Why do you think we are so intolerant of Christians? You can stereotype them & continue to be intolerant if you'd like. Religion has killed more people than anything else. Christians hate gay people. Christians want to control what women can do with their bodies. Etc. Etc. Etc. Just like we could say some things about any group of people. But what Christians here are like that? What Christians here are controlling, intolerant, and trying to force their beliefs down your throat, or whatever stereotypes you have for all the Christians?

Sure, there are Christians out there who are that way. Just like there are bad people of every classification. Yet, how does being intolerant of Christianity make you wise? It's popular. So people will high-five you on it. But is everything that's popular right? Bell-bottoms were popular in the 70s. Parachute pants were popular in the 80's. Pants worn with your butt crack showing were popular in the 90's. It was still stupid. I don't have a single piercing. I have no tatoos. I didn't wear those kinds of pants. I'm not saying that I'm better than people because of it, but I also didn't tell anyone doing those things that they were stupid just because I thought it was stupid. That's the point here. I was tolerant of others and I always have been, even the people and things I don't like.

Why spend so much time hating? Being intolerant? Being abusive? What does it add to you? Or does it subtract from you?

These discussions here aren't intellectual. They're far less, I'm sad to say.

How come God did this theN?
Well how come it says that then?
Okay well what about THIS?

There's no learning. No sharing. It's more just watching ping pong. It's more like,
Are we there yet?
Are we there yet?
Are we there yet?
Are we there yet?

The sky is blue.
WHy?
Because God made it that way.
Why?
Because he liked the color blue.
Why?
Because he already used orange for the sun.
Why?


There's no request for a real answer. It's just testing the shield of your faith with demonic arrows.
Well, I guess you deflected that one.
ANd there's another one.
yep, you got that one too.
Well I guess your shield's pretty strong.
You got another one.
Yep, but I'll be shooting more.
Here comes another one.
Last one.
Just kidding.
Here's another.
Another.
And another.

-----

So I gotta ask. Why the intolerance man?
And why does the watch allow intolerance of Christians when I know for a fact that none of this stuff would fly at all if it were any other group? (not because it's the watch, but like I said, it's popular to beat up on religion).

----

Finally, I'm not mad or anything. I'm very even tempered. I never felt like I raised my voice at all while I was typing (you know, that voice in your head that reads the words you write).

[[Syl]]

This is a "philosophy, religion and spirituality" forum, Mr. Majestic. We talk/debate/argue about religion. Christianity is, in simple terms, the heavyweight champ. If the majority of Westerners were muslim, we'd be talking about Islam (we really could use some mid-east or asian Watch members... guess SRD just isn't big over there).

What would make you happy, Mr. Majestic? I'm being sincere here. If you have any proposals, the other mods and I would be happy to consider them.

As it is, you're welcome, encouraged, even, to start any thread you want, reply to any thread you want.

[Mr. Majestic]

Thank you. I believe your sincerity.

If I could wave a magic wand and have whatever I wished for regarding this topic, I would ask for moderation from empathy.

If you were a woman, a black person, gay, etc. and there was a derogatory post about something you cared deeply about because it was your life or because you identified with the struggle of such issues because of the continued intolerance of such groups over time then you would request that the post be locked or removed. And a moderator would take it down or lock it down.

I want nothing more than the equal treatment of what other groups would receive.

A moderator should look at a post and ask themselves, if I did believe in Christianity would I feel slightly uncomfortable with the mockery of my Lord & Savior Jesus Christ being ridiculed or would I be extremely uncomfortable seeing my God & King made to be scorned? Biblical Scripture is precious to Christians. What would you think of someone urinating on a regular book let alone dragging a Holy book through the mud of a pig's sty?

Look, I understand that it is popular to be intolerant of Christians. I just think that part of the reason is that Christians are told never to speak up and rather just deal with it, to turn the other cheek. I think that many Christians forget that it is okay to be angry and that Jesus was angry. Anger isn't a sin when that anger has righteous reasoning behind it. so I'm telling you that I think it is the fault of the Christians themselves. At work, a black man makes fun of himself and they call him slaveboy. It's his business and he's bringing it on himself if he ever gets hurt. He's playing a dangerous game in my opinion. That's worse than what Christians do, which is nothing, but not much worse. So I'm not mad at anyone. But I do think that it should be examined properly as a longterm misuse of the forums that should be modified. Change comes because someone is finally brave enough to ride in the front of the bus and have a voice. I'm asking everyone to listen to my voice and rally around me & prove that we really are tolerant of other people's beliefs and lifestyles even when we do not share them, and not just the popular ones of the day.

[Plissken]

Majestic,

If you think all I do is "bait" Christians, you've got a lot more readiing to do.

I also have been "baiting" Libs, Cons, Feminists...

Actually, this thread is so old I had to go back and re-read the posts those snippets of mine were from. You know what? I wasn't going after Christians, I was going after smug Christians. I have a problem with people who edit their Holy Books into the shape that they want, declare that editing job to be the only viable one, and then get uppity whenever someone asks questions about the bits that don't quite fit with the shape they've created.

But anger? I don't get angry 'till the really smug ones get all whiney when their smugness is challenged. As I recall, it wasn't Iryssa that answered my question Edge did, and we had a little chuckle about it. And I wasn't asking because I didn't know - that should've been obvious. I was asking because even Christians who know that they've got a "New Covenant" don't always know where to find the texts that tell them so.

Seriously, if you want to know what I really think about which types of Christians, the "Christians - a lengthy rant" thread (just a few lines below this one) covers it pretty nicely. The actual rant that begins the thread is by Edge, who is one of our leading Christians on this board. Most of what we wrote there should answer your concerns - except for the part where you compare me to Luke Skywalker (I like that bit!).

If you want to continue this discussion on that thread, it might be fun...

[Mr. Majestic]

And I wasn't asking because I didn't know - that should've been obvious. I was asking because even Christians who know that they've got a "New Covenant" don't always know where to find the texts that tell them so.

That's what I'm talking about regarding baiting though.

Actually, you scare the living hell out of me. Every time I see your name I shrink in my seat. Maybe longtime people here see you as their lovable pagan Plissken, but frankly you freak me out.

[Kymbierlee]

Mr. Majestic wrote:

A moderator should look at a post and ask themselves, if I did believe in Christianity would I feel slightly uncomfortable with the mockery of my Lord & Savior Jesus Christ being ridiculed or would I be extremely uncomfortable seeing my God & King made to be scorned? Biblical Scripture is precious to Christians. What would you think of someone urinating on a regular book let alone dragging a Holy book through the mud of a pig's sty?

and

Actually, you scare the living hell out of me. Every time I see your name I shrink in my seat. Maybe longtime people here see you as their lovable pagan Plissken, but frankly you freak me out.

Wow- a member here for three whole days and he has us all figured out already.

BTW, I think I have the market cornered on Paganism around here, right, Plissken?

[danlo]

Mr. Majestic's been here before, Kim, and he thought he had us all figured out then too...

[Mr. Majestic]

Wow- a member here for three whole days and he has us all figured out already.

BTW, I think I have the market cornered on Paganism around here, right, Plissken?

Perhaps you do. Yes I've only been here for a whole 3 days and that's it. I'm an outgoing person. I was invited here. You can view the "summoning" post I made.

Mr. Majestic's been here before, Kim, and he thought he had us all figured out then too...

Danlo, I have nothing but the utmost respect for people I meet online. However I am interested in changing the ideas of people who I meet as well. Is that so bad?

I have never been to the watch before. I'd ask who you think I am, but I'm afraid that it would be an insult from the terse way you put it.

Still I'm interested in what your take on all this religion intolerance might be?

[Avatar]

If you were a woman, a black person, gay, etc. and there was a derogatory post about something you cared deeply about because it was your life or because you identified with the struggle of such issues because of the continued intolerance of such groups over time then you would request that the post be locked or removed. And a moderator would take it down or lock it down.

You could request that, to be sure, and the moderators might consider your complaint justifiable enough that they would do so. Or, you could address the question, defend your position, or explain why you felt so strongly about it.

A moderator should look at a post and ask themselves, if I did believe in Christianity would I feel slightly uncomfortable with the mockery of my Lord & Savior Jesus Christ being ridiculed or would I be extremely uncomfortable seeing my God & King made to be scorned? Biblical Scripture is precious to Christians. What would you think of someone urinating on a regular book let alone dragging a Holy book through the mud of a pig's sty?

Two of the three moderators of this particular sub-forum are dedicated christians. And any christian who feels that way about any post of thread is more than welcome to say so (and why) publicly or privately.

Which posts, if I may ask, do you percieve to be ridiculing or scornful to christianity, let alone christians? Personally, I don't think that any Watcher is insulted or attacked because of the faith that they profess. Those beliefs may be questioned, but IMHO at least, (and christians, please speak up here if I'm wrong) nobody is discriminated against here for any reason.

They may be argued with, they may be disagreed with, but they are not treated with less respect. When it comes down to it, I don't think that anybody is looked down on because of their christianity. On the contrary, not only are some of the most respected Watchers devout christians, but I think that many of them are fine examples of what christians should be, and have and do go a long way toward improving the perceptions of non-christians toward that faith.

I'm asking everyone to listen to my voice and rally around me & prove that we really are tolerant of other people's beliefs and lifestyles even when we do not share them, and not just the popular ones of the day.

The christians here are on the whole tolerant of the beliefs and opinions of those that do not share their beliefs. And they have a willingness to explain and share those beliefs, those opinions, and the reasons for them.

You mention in an earlier post that you do not find the conversations "intellectual". Why not join in and contribute to them, perhaps striving to "improve their quality" if you really feel it to be so low, rather than trying to inject "reason" into discussions which I think, have been pretty reasonable.

Of course, if you'd like to start a topic about intolerance here, by all means do so. I'd like to know how many Watchers do feel discriminated against because of their religion, because I assure you, that is not the intention of any of these discussions.

--Avatar

[Plissken]

Mr. Majestic wrote:

A moderator should look at a post and ask themselves, if I did believe in Christianity would I feel slightly uncomfortable with the mockery of my Lord & Savior Jesus Christ being ridiculed or would I be extremely uncomfortable seeing my God & King made to be scorned? Biblical Scripture is precious to Christians. What would you think of someone urinating on a regular book let alone dragging a Holy book through the mud of a pig's sty?

and

Actually, you scare the living hell out of me. Every time I see your name I shrink in my seat. Maybe longtime people here see you as their lovable pagan Plissken, but frankly you freak me out.

Wow- a member here for three whole days and he has us all figured out already.

BTW, I think I have the market cornered on Paganism around here, right, Plissken?

Well, I usually claim to be agnostic - with a few ideas on the subject. But for you, Kym, I might convert. Care to try and make a believer out of me?

Seriously, there are a few things from 12 years of religious schooling that tend to come out all over the place on the Philosophy thread. Getting slapped down for doing extra study on the historical context and actual history of the works and writers of the Bible will do that. I never meant to scare anybody, though.

I used to have a hard and fast rule that I wouldn't challenge anyone else's faith unless I had something to replace it with. After years of study, I still haven't found anything -- but since so many of the true believers seem to think it's time to legislate based on what they believe in, I tend to think that there's more need for discussion now.

I do object to the accusation that I'm intolerant of Christians - or anybody else for that matter. For the most part, Christians are easily tolerated - they are kind, loving people on an individual basis. I should probably point out though, that if your definition of tolerance includes leaving your ideas and arguments unchallenged, I'm probably not your guy. Likewise, if you think that all-over-the-board, at-best-tangentally-related-arguments and strange, repetitive allegories and comparisons do anything beyond making you feel better for having vented, again - I'm not your guy. I've already had a belly-full of that from my Ex-wife. (She's a pagan, BTW.)

Finally, if you think that I don't make requests "for a real answer" to my questions and arguments - you're not paying very close attention. If, on the other hand, you don't like where the answers you're finding are taking the conversation - that might be something you want to look into.

[Mr. Majestic]

You know, perhaps I just stumbled onto the exact right two "wrong" posts at the exact right "Wrong" time.

When I read posts such as the ones I've read in response to mine I almost feel guilty for suggesting that religion is being beaten on. But it really, really looked that way to me. How should "I", a new dude, come in and see these things and then be edified with sympathy and not be moved?

Well, look, I just want to know that when I come to any forum. (Really, it's not just this one). That I'll be able to feel free to see a forum about spirituality that doesn't have more than a fair share of anti-Christian statements in it. Honestly, is that so much to ask?

Instead, if you wish to debate something, perhaps we could debate why David was chose to fight Goliath. Or maybe we could debate why God chose the woman be deceived by Satan first or that Satan chose her first whichever is less likely to be an activity of anti-God, Anti-Bible, but rather an excercise in understanding. Is it really that bad to try to understand about what you don't know or even what you don't like?

I enjoy my example about RAP music. I personally don't enjoy RAP. But I like how I expressed that listening to RAP isn't something for me culturally significant but rather it is important for me to realize that for some people it is culturally significant.

I think that everyone here can learn to be a better person, even me, especially me, and to see that having intolerance is useless in debate and egging on Christians or other religious groups might be funny to some, it is a very serious matter to others that should be respected.

[Mr. Majestic]

I do object to the accusation that I'm intolerant of Christians - or anybody else for that matter. For the most part, Christians are easily tolerated - they are kind, loving people on an individual basis. I should probably point out though, that if your definition of tolerance includes leaving your ideas and arguments unchallenged, I'm probably not your guy. Likewise, if you think that all-over-the-board, at-best-tangentally-related-arguments and strange, repetitive allegories and comparisons do anything beyond making you feel better for having vented, again - I'm not your guy. I've already had a belly-full of that from my Ex-wife. (She's a pagan, BTW.)

Finally, if you think that I don't make requests "for a real answer" to my questions and arguments - you're not paying very close attention. If, on the other hand, you don't like where the answers you're finding are taking the conversation - that might be something you want to look into.

You might be right. Look I'm not trying to cause problems. I really don't have any issues with you or anyone here. I'm new & I don't know the boundaries of what's acceptable yet. What I'm trying to do is bring to everyone's attention that is interested in Christian debate that people of belief are hurt by things that are said even in jest because they are spoofing on something that is precious to them. Don't you think that this is worth looking into ?

[Mr. Majestic]

Of course, if you'd like to start a topic about intolerance here, by all means do so. I'd like to know how many Watchers do feel discriminated against because of their religion, because I assure you, that is not the intention of any of these discussions.

--Avatar

Okay. I'll do this later. I'd really like to see how this current thread goes before I place myself any further into the dog house.

Hey, I know that what I'm saying isn't welcome to an extent. I know that what I'm saying is a slap in the face to an extent. I'm asking you to look at what I'm saying and think to yourselves, "Yes he's got a point and here's my plan on dealing with it". I really want to see someone say that we can move forward toward resolution. I don't think that I'm fighting a horde of pagans bent on the hate of God. I think I'm voicing a stand for my beliefs and that I got caught up in the whirlwind of my own passion. I know who I am. I just want to be respected for it. Is that okay?

[Avatar]

You know, perhaps I just stumbled onto the exact right two "wrong" posts at the exact right "Wrong" time.

Maybe you did.

Well, look, I just want to know that when I come to any forum. (Really, it's not just this one). That I'll be able to feel free to see a forum about spirituality that doesn't have more than a fair share of anti-Christian statements in it. Honestly, is that so much to ask?

What would you consider a fair share? And how would you define "anti-chrstian"? In my opinion, there's a significant difference between the discussions and questions that happen here and something that is actively "anti-christian."

Instead, if you wish to debate something, perhaps we could debate why David was chose to fight Goliath. Or maybe we could debate why God chose the woman be deceived by Satan first or that Satan chose her first whichever is less likely to be an activity of anti-God, Anti-Bible, but rather an excercise in understanding. Is it really that bad to try to understand about what you don't know or even what you don't like?

Certainly not. And I think that by far the majority of the discussion that happens here is in the quest for that understanding, rather than to suggest, let alone convince, others that christianity per se is "wrong" in any way. But if you start a topic like that, unless (maybe) you ask non-christians to not participate, you're going to get people asking the sort of questions that you seem to percieve as "derogatory." Although, (I hasten to add), they almost certainly wouldn't be intended that way.

If christians, or people of any other belief for that matter, are hurt in any way by what we say, ask or suggest here, then they have one of two immediate options: Say so, and discuss the matter, bringing hopefully some resolution, or avoid the Close entirely. I think that the fact that many christians choose not to speaks volumes about the quality of both the people, and the discussion.

And by all means, start that topic. Might as well get it all out right away.

--Avatar

[Mr. Majestic]

Are you suggesting that if someone is too offended they shouldn't bother to post at all?

I could make a whole bunch of anti everything else posts & really offend people like I've been offended. And would you then just not respond?

Wow, that guy just said all kinds of thing about midgets that is just completely wrong.

Woah, retarded people are people man, that's so wrong!

ETc. Etc. Etc.

But the reality of it is that no matter what I do or say makes a difference. I feel EXTREMELY HUMILIATED in my belief as a Christian to have even read that "link" that was posted. I actually felt physical pain because that link was so terrible & mocking to my God, Lord, Jesus Christ, My Savior. ANd here we are battling on symantics. Well he said she said.

Meanwhile I was left trembling because that post was so jeering to my faith. It did not shake my faith, but it mocked me. I have given example on example on example. All I get is in return is a bunch of fluff surrounding one thing or another but only Syl actually came out directly with questions and asking responses. The rest of the responses make me feel like I'm on trial for feeling offended.

I've given all the examples I can give. If you still don't understand how much it hits the heart then I don't know what to say. But to suggest that maybe people just shouldn't post is ridiculous. I think they should post. I think everyone should post. I think the guy that hates #B#UTTERLY HATES#B# Christians should post. But everyone should post correctly. Even if I HATED Jewish kids, I shouldn't be able to say things against them & make terrible jokes about stupid long-nosed kids locked in a steambath with death. Even the mildest of wording can be the most mocking.

Hey, if you at this place I find full of good minds are just going to be adament about this then I will turn a blind eye. It will be a sad defeat though & not just for me.

I'm not going to repeat all the useful things I said. read them. I feel like I'm the black girl on the bus being told by the white boys, "bitch get in the back where you belong!" "Who are you to stand up here? Get in the back n*****!"

I'm ready to stand a little bit on my own two feet but truthfully I'm staggering with the blind shots and reeling from the unseen slaps in the face. I can hardly stand any more & I fear that soon I'll just look like an idiot that tried to stand up & was sat down by sheer force. I'm asking for help. Please.

[Plissken]

Okay, MM, I'm going to ask this very gently: You're making some pretty serious accusations when you imply that something along the level of this:

Even if I HATED Jewish kids, I shouldn't be able to say things against them & make terrible jokes about stupid long-nosed kids locked in a steambath with death. Even the mildest of wording can be the most mocking.

And this:

I feel like I'm the black girl on the bus being told by the white boys, "bitch get in the back where you belong!" "Who are you to stand up here? Get in the back n*****!"

is being said to anyone on this forum. (We've had a collective slap-down on this forum over calling someone "a waste of space.")

Got examples of these "shots" and "slaps"?

[Avatar]

Are you suggesting that if someone is too offended they shouldn't bother to post at all?

Not in the slightest. In fact, I'd encourage the exact opposite, that they do post and at length. I was merely saying that the alternative was an option as well.

I could make a whole bunch of anti everything else posts & really offend people like I've been offended. And would you then just not respond?

Nope, I would certainly respond.

I feel EXTREMELY HUMILIATED in my belief as a Christian to have even read that "link" that was posted. I actually felt physical pain because that link was so terrible & mocking to my God, Lord, Jesus Christ, My Savior.

Then you have every right to say so, and to say why, and to ask for others comments. IIRC, there were several remarks on the biased nature of that quiz (if that's what you're talking about.)

Meanwhile I was left trembling because that post was so jeering to my faith. It did not shake my faith, but it mocked me. I have given example on example on example.

Examples of what offended you about that quiz? Sorry, as was mentioned, the topic was pretty much dead, so if you did, I can't say I picked up on them. (My mistake, looking back, I do see one comment on it in an earlier post by yourself.)

But to suggest that maybe people just shouldn't post is ridiculous. I think they should post. I think everyone should post. I think the guy that hates #B#UTTERLY HATES#B# Christians should post. But everyone should post correctly.

I certainly agree that everyone should post. But "correctly" is pretty subjective. What would you suggest the correct way would be?

I'm asking for help. Please.

And how do you think that we can help you? The mods are always willing to help. But some suggestions about possible resolution would probably help them help you.

--A

[Mr. Majestic]

It keeps on progressing away from the topic. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, knowing the ways of the ill.

Good enough I guess. I made my stand I was true & strong & I made my play in the song of the giants as they watched and waited & did nothing. There is nothing else one can do.

No aid came during the crisis. It was only me & me alone & it was so barren of all but personal grief.


I guess I'll take the avatar's statement as the ONLY way out in that I should just not interfere with people calling Christians names & mocking their God & making fun of their beliefs. I guess that this is completely acceptable at the watch and it will never change and is perhaps a very main part of the watch to beat up on Christianity even though no one would say Danlo DAMMIT or AVATAR DAMN YOU! but only God Dammit. And maybe that's EXACTLY why people are saying things against God & such here because it is normal & easy to be like that. How difficult it is to stand against the water as it runs past you & to swim against it as the salmon do each year. How hard it is to be a man who believes while the whole world ridcules him at every turn for every belief & then says "What? I was just saying blahblah blah, no need to take it personal, blah blah". I've made my examples. No one took it seriously. No one. If I said, You are a terrible woman, dont' vote, you have no say of your body , blah blah blah, then I'm positive that this entire population of forum people would jump on me & crush me like a rock would crush a paper boat.

WE ALL FLOAT DOWN HERE!

[Mr. Majestic]

I guess I should just stay away from the lions when they are feeding.

I'm really not interested in standing so tall that I topple over with an earthquake's trembling.


See you.

[Avatar]

I should just not interfere with people calling Christians names & mocking their God & making fun of their beliefs. I guess that this is completely acceptable at the watch...

Would you like to point out exactly where people on the Watch are doing this?

--A