Something I hate to admit...

[DirectorDios]

Yea, but the bigger question is....was she Hot?
(sorry, also the father of 3 girls but I read too much Fark.com)

[Marlowe]

I read his Unbelief as less "This isn't real", more "This had better not be real, I couldn't cope. I won't let it be real, damn it!"

It's refusal to believe, in the face of compelling evidence. The difference between disbelief and Unbelief, IMHO.

Yes, this was my impression too- if he was simply disbelieving, he wouldn't be a very interesting character, as well as being a bit of a moron; the fact that he struggles against his belief makes the whole thing work.

Thank you for phrasing it that way, as I hadn't thought of it quite so clearly before.

[Guest]

very, very good... I'm thinking

[Aleksandr]

I had to finally admit to myself that Covenant had unnatural and extremely wrong feelings for his own daughter..

Well, yes, he did have feelings for her. In fact Dondalson, somewhere in the GI (I think) admits he had to tone down that part of the story since in the original it had gone too far into territory that the editors (probably rightly) felt would appall the readers even more than the rape. But some things have to be kept in mind:
1) Covenant is still doing the “Unbelief” thing. That is, he isn’t able to admit that Elena is real yet.
2) In Covevant’s timeline Elena was conceived no more than a few weeks ago so there’s a sort of generational whiplash happening here: his daughter is the same age as (actually older than) he is, which is not an experience any of us can say we’ve had.
3) Whatever his feelings he does not act on them, which is a victory of sorts, certainly a much better outcomne than what happened with Lena in LFB.

What I'm saying is that Thomas Covenant should have had no physical attraction towards Elena at all.

I think you’re being a bit unfair here. Emotions are spontaneous. No one is responsible for their feelings. What matters, morally, is whether one acts on them. Most of us here have probably felt attraction to someone we shouldn’t, because the other person was with someone else perhaps. So aren’t we all guilty by your standard?

[Luke The Unbeliever]

CovenantJr hit the nail right on the head !
He said what I wanted to...thank you.

and to the above post (cuz I'm too lazy to go back and C&P)...

The only problem I have with Covenant's feelings is that they are for his daughter, even after he learns that she is his daughter. Other than that(incest), I wouldn't call someone guilty of being wrong for having feelings for someone else.

I'm talking about incest, nothing more. It's wrong, and hopefully everyone here believes it's wrong...my original feelings leaned towards disgust after I finally accepted it, but now, I just don't see the significance of having those themes or feelings between Covenant and Elena.

To me anyways, it seems that Elena's mental status and/or Covenant's questionable belief could've been channeled through a different conduit than the one SRD used.

Now, I'm more interested in why Donaldson chose to take the direction he did...I've seen his answers to similair questions in the GI, but he seems to be holding back on explaining Covenant's role in all of this...most of his answers basically center on Elena.

[Avatar]

Emotions are spontaneous. No one is responsible for their feelings. What matters, morally, is whether one acts on them.

Well said Aleksandr. Pretty much my opinion on the matter in a nutshell. Actions must be the determinator of morality. If we're judged on our thoughts and feelings, we're probably all in a lot of trouble.

--A

[wayfriend]

Now, I'm more interested in why Donaldson chose to take the direction he did...I've seen his answers to similair questions in the GI, but he seems to be holding back on explaining Covenant's role in all of this...most of his answers basically center on Elena.

I thought he explained Covenant's role quite well.

Yes, there is "a not-so-fatherly aspect to Covenant's feelings for Elena." How could he possibly feel like her father? They haven't had one iota of a father-daughter relationship. And when he returns to the Land in "The Illearth War," he's actually younger than she is. And he still has all those messy reborn sensations to deal with.
(11/18/2004)

Covenant's role is ... the innocent! (Victimizer becomes Victim). Elena is trying to seduce him, he is somewhat incapable of resisting (but does).

The attempted seduction is a necessity for Covenant's second Bargain, as well. The Bargain is based on - is possible because - Elena is so willing to do what he asks. If Elena had different feelings for Covenant, the Bargain would not have been possible - or as possible. Would a High Lord work as hard to please an Ur-Lord Father as an Ur-Lord Desire Object?

[Luke The Unbeliever]

Ok, I see what you mean, about what it meant to/and/or concerning the 2nd bargain.

Maybe it's just me, maybe I'm unable to see it a different way. Maybe I'm unable to get past what I feel as opposed to what Covenant felt....I dunno, but it still seems wrong to me...

Oh well, I still love Covenant and I still love The Chrons...I suppose that's the more important thing...

[theDespiser]

the fact that some things are wrong are what makes the series unique

[mystmaiden]

Triock told Covenant.. he was not to blame 'she was flawed from birth' .
That, to me, explains her part of it. Covenant's ..I've always thought of it as an extention of the lonliness of leprosy.

myst

[bossk]

For me, the interesting part of this argument is this: within SRD's creation, the worst thing an individual can do is take something by force - rape, posession, murder, etc. By that token, though our societal mores tell us that incest is wrong, in this case IT WAS CONSENSUAL. We are repelled by the notion, but Covenant wasn't forcing his lust on Elena, and vice-versa. I haven't re-read the book recently enough to put that concept into the context, but I might have to give it a try just to see how it makes me feel to read the same stuff through that filter.

[wayfriend]

but Covenant wasn't forcing his lust on Elena

When did Covenant "lust" for Elena?

I would say, never. The worst you can say is, there were a few, brief moments when he failed to immediately reject her advances.

[bossk]

but Covenant wasn't forcing his lust on Elena

When did Covenant "lust" for Elena?

I would say, never. The worst you can say is, there were a few, brief moments when he failed to immediately reject her advances.

Fine, whatever you want to call the feelings they shared, my main point was about the themes of the book - as another poster pointed out, one of them is impotence, and as I said, another is posession. One of the fundamental paradoxes of the book, stated in my own words, is: How does one use power (overcome impotence) without hurting someone else (raping, posessing, coercing, killing)? Covenant deals with this problem throughout the entire series. With Elena, he is not dealing with that issue, really, because whatever is happening is happening with her full participation.

[Avatar]

I pretty much agree, and think that it's a good take on it. For a start, there was no incest in the first place, but more importantly, as Bossk suggests, there was no element of force or coercion.

--A