Pope Opposes Harry Potter

[Damelon]

He did learn a lesson. He devoted his life to god.

Again, not quite sure.
Maybe he found power in god, or the ability to control people.

An interesting way to be divinely inspired.

Bringing up his past in this way only serves to dismiss what he has to say without having to consider what he has to say.

I think devoting one's life to people is a much greater thing.

I have no real arguement with that, but why can't one serve both?

I would say that any organization that claims a billion followers, myself not among them btw, is not in danger of becoming irrelevant any time soon.

"Claims them" (italics mine) And how many obedient followers does anyone know? Tiny percentage. IMO, it would be impossible to live a fulfilling life while trying to be an obedient follower.

No way to know the percentage, but people certainly listen to what he has to say.

The very reaction here to his statement means that he is very relevent, since otherwise people wouldn't care what he says.

People usually care when someone wants to oppress millions.

How is he trying to do that?

[Dragonlily]

People usually care when someone wants to oppress millions.

How is he trying to do that?

Referring you back to earlier in conversation.

[Kinslaughterer]

I generally am distrustful of people who acquire lofty positions of power. Many do not gain them by just means.

Several people from his hometown claimed he could have resisted joining the Nazis and many apparently did.

I don't really trust anyone who can find "seduction" and a potential evil in a children's book. When they make comments like that, plus a whole host of other questionable comments and policies, and throw in being a member of the German army during WWII, I don't consider too much of what they say.

Usually when people devote their life to god, it means they are trying to save their rear. I have yet to see anything that suggests he has devoted his life to people either.

[Lord Mhoram]

Kins,

Dude he started in the Hitler Youth. How was he supposed to resist?

Usually when people devote their life to god, it means they are trying to save their ass.

Yep okay. I'm sure people like Mother Theresa were trying to save their asses, yes?

[Dragonlily]

It's perfectly possible she was doing some penance she set herself, but if so, it did work out well. We would have no way of knowing.

[Kinslaughterer]

Sorry, just my personal experience.

One can always resist. But then I'm sure all the old Nazis said that.

You can show me one Mother T. but I can show you ten thousand brimstone dodgers.

[Lord Mhoram]

Kins,

You can show me one Mother T. but I can show you ten thousand brimstone dodgers.

I do not consider "brimstone dodgers" to be men of God.

[[Syl]]

Not to attack anyone's beliefs, but there's a lot of information out there that points to the fact that Mother Teresa was as pure good as the nazis were pure evil. I'd guess the truth's somewhere in between.

[Damelon]

People usually care when someone wants to oppress millions.

How is he trying to do that?

Referring you back to earlier in conversation.

Where? By suggesting a book might not be put into proper perspective by the young? That's hardly opression. Your free to take or disregard his advice.

Several people from his hometown claimed he could have resisted joining the Nazis and many apparently did.

I don't really trust anyone who can find "seduction" and a potential evil in a children's book. When they make comments like that, plus a whole host of other questionable comments and policies, and throw in being a member of the German army during WWII, I don't consider too much of what they say.

Usually when people devote their life to god, it means they are trying to save their rear. I have yet to see anything that suggests he has devoted his life to people either.

I'm not going to comment on his theology. Often times your right about "men of god", but to state that all such people are covering their ass is far from the mark in my experience.

All he seems to be suggesting is that there is a possibility that miscomprenhension of the story on the part of the young might lead them to wrong conclusions about christian beliefs. If you don't care about that, then his thoughts don't apply to you.

Going back to his military service, which your statement on drew me to comment in the first place in this thread. It's difficult to see what options were available to him. No one has ever said he was a supporter of the Nazis, and any contact with them seems to been coerced. It's easy to say from hindsight that he should have done something different, or that he was trying to save his ass. Maybe the thought of a firing squad didn't appeal to him. He was after all only 16 and in any case he seemed to have no attachment to the Nazis, otherwise he wouldn't have deserted.

[Kinslaughterer]

Often times your right about "men of god", but to state that all such people are covering their ass is far from the mark in my experience.

It certainly isn't all, thats why I didn't say "all".

All he seems to be suggesting is that there is a possibility that miscomprenhension of the story on the part of the young might lead them to wrong conclusions about christian beliefs. If you don't care about that, then his thoughts don't apply to you.

Let's hope they miscomprehend Harry and stay away from the Bible where people miscomprehend and commit all manner of crimes.

It's difficult to see what options were available to him. No one has ever said he was a supporter of the Nazis, and any contact with them seems to been coerced. It's easy to say from hindsight that he should have done something different, or that he was trying to save his ass. Maybe the thought of a firing squad didn't appeal to him. He was after all only 16 and in any case he seemed to have no attachment to the Nazis, otherwise he wouldn't have deserted.

Would we elect someone who was coerced into the Klan? Would an ex IRA member become a prime minister? I suppose the answer is yes.
Two words: plausible deniability
In cases of this matter I do not give the benefit of the doubt.

[Avatar]

I think Damelon makes some good points there myself. Everybody knows I'm no fan of religion in general, and christianity in particular, but those comments, (by the cardinal, not yet the pope), certainly aren't a rining condemnation of all Harry Potter readers to the fiery pits of hell, now are they?

In fact, Damelon put it quite well when he said that christianity does portray those themes, of magic, sorcery, witchcraft etc. as evil and of the devil. What else could the guy say? He could be saying it a lot stronger too. It's not a liberal stance, he's not a liberal pope. In fact, for the hard-liner he was supposed to be, the comments were fairly moderate.

And on the miliatry issue, as I said when the pope was elected, Hitler Youth in those days was the thing to do, like scouts, the army, the Wehrmacht, (which the Artillery must have been part of) was not the Nazi Party or the Waffen SS.

And 16. Good grief. A teenager. Even if he was a member of the Nazi Party, I don't have it in me to condemn somebody for beliefs he may or may not have had at the age of 16 in a country where everybody was raised to those beliefs very deliberately, where it was expected of any good German, and nationalistic fervour is scarcely uncommon in the young. (How old are many of American soldiers in Iraq?)

--Avatar

[matrixman]

If we want to be responsible citizens of a free world, then we should always question the motives of those who hold positions of authority and power. We must hold them to their words. That's my pretentious way of saying that's what this thread is about, in my view. We're questioning the Pope, and we have the right to do so.

[Avatar]

Sure, we absolutely have the right, the duty even, to question the pope, and every other authority figure. Without doubt.

And I pretty much agree with holding them to their word as well. Hell, I flat-out disagree with the fundamental principles of the popes beliefs. But I think also that he should be judged by what he says and does while in power, not what he may have believed or done 50-odd years ago.

--A

[matrixman]

I agree, we should mainly be focusing on what the Pope is doing today. However, forgive me if I sound antagonistic, Avatar, but would you care to go tell the Jewish Congress that a person's Nazi past is not relevant? (Beg your pardon--Hitler Youth past. Mustn't confuse the two.)

Then again, being the outspoken person that you are, I imagine you would indeed go ahead if you felt it was the right thing to do.

(Sigh) And I have the feeling the more I say in this thread, the more it's going to suck the energy and life out of me. I don't know how you regular Close contributors do it without suffering a complete burnout.

[Avatar]

You? Antagonistic? I'm not sure you could be if you tried.

And yes, I wouldn't have a problem arguing that his past is not relevant, provided that such past is not clearly influencing his actions and decisions today.

If the pope came out and suggested we do away with the Jews, I'd be the first to jump up and disagree. But to say that he's bad (and I don't think he was a good choice) because of those long-ago actions, and beliefs which he may or may not have held, is too limiting.

Condemn him for denying gay marriage, and I'll be there with you. Encourage a female clergy, and you'll have my support. But if nothing else, afford him the opportunity to show that his actions and decisions have nothing to do with what he may have done or thought back in WWII, at a time when, at the very least, facing the crumbling of the Reich, the Nazi's were doing everything they could to enforce participation.

(And to answer your other question, I'd venture to say that we draw life and energy from it. Psychic Vampirism works for me. )

--Avatar

[Lord Mhoram]

Matrixman,

Clearly, IMO, the Pope's Nazi service is irrelevant. Tell me, how is it relevant?

[Plissken]

Umm, 'cause he was a Nazi, and now he's the Pope?

[ChoChiyo]

Just curious--because I don't know--did the Pope ever officially denounce the Nazi party and its regime?

Because if he did--I would feel a lot better about it.

If he didn't, I'd be wondering WHY.

And for the record, it is his ultra conservative agenda that make me dislike him as pope. We don't need anyone shoved back into a closet or back under a bootheel or in barefoot, pregnant bondage....

Just my bed-wetting liberal philosophy.

[Lord Mhoram]

Plissken,

Umm, 'cause he was a Nazi, and now he's the Pope?

Still not seeing why it's a big deal. He was probably conscripted, at the age of 16, and then he deserted.

I'd be worried if he were part of the Nazi idealogue, and maybe if he wasn't 16 when he joined.

You're oversimplifying it. It's more complicated than "OMG HE WAS A NAZI."

[safetyjedi]

I totally agree LM. He was forced into that and then he deserted. Since that carried the death penalty, I'd say that was the ulitmate denouncement.