An Atheist Dilemma

[Avatar]

As those of you who frequent the Library will know, I've just read Chaim Potok's excellent book, The Gift of Asher Lev, sequel to My Name is Asher Lev, about an incredibly talented orthodox jewish artist. I'm not going to say any more about the books, because I think everybody should read them, but toward the end of the second book, the author mentions what he calls "the two extremes of the secular world."

He says, (and I'm paraphrasing here, 'cause I don't have it with me) that the two extremes of the secular world are Freud's stoic acceptance of ourselves as "base animals," or Nietzsche's gay defiance in the face of --Nothing. In the face of violence, of an uncaring and empty universe, in the face of boiling chaos.

And that struck a serious chord in me. Not, I'm afraid, in the way in which the author intended, as a call to spirituality, but in the exact opposite. An almost exultant agreement that such defiance in the face of the void is the best, if not all, that we can have. It doesn't matter that there is no reason, it doesn't matter that there is no reward. What matters is that it is now, and that I am here as myself. That I will do what I think is the right thing for as long as I am.

As usual when I start a topic here, I'm not exactly sure what I'm looking for. Agreement, disagreement, questions? Maybe. Maybe some thoughts on the basis of a non-religious morality or ethics? Or why it isn't possible? I don't know. As I so often do, I release these thoughts into the ether, and wait to see what, if anything, happens.

Thank you.

--Avatar

[Loredoctor]

As it is order that emerges from chaos, so too does human nature build order from chaos, or power from pain.

[ur-bane]

This is not easy for me to comment on because I was brought up Catholic, so my ideas may be influenced by a religion I no longer practice.

I am a firm believer in the concept of self. When it comes to applying self in a religious sense, I founder with uncertainty.

But I do know (for me) self is the tool I have with which to determine my morals/ethics. I personally don't need a god or savior to "show me the way." Self dictates what I feel is right.

While some suggest I am lacking in spiritual guidance because I claim no religious affiliation, I counter that my spirit of self is my guidance.

While my upbringing affected the way I look at the world, self took over in my teens, and I grew from there.

If I have any spiritual connection, it would be with the natural world. With the squirrels and raccoons in the forest, the deer trekking across my yard, the hummingbirds that feed from my flowers. If spirituality consists of calm and connection with my environment, then self is itself spiritual.

I have not read either title that you mentioned, so I cannot say for sure if I am taking this thread in the direction you intend (or hoped), but I do know that regardless of the final outcome of my life, self is what guides me. A thorough search within guides me more than anything without.

[Avatar]

The titles I mention have nothing to do with the thread, other than the fact that what prompted this topic was found in one of them. And there is no direction set out for this thread, or even hoped for. I've set it loose to wander as it will in the hope that something interesting may be revealed.

And, I don't think the influence of your up-bringing matters either in this sense, I was raised a Catholic too for what its worth. (Although without the emphasis that some seem to place on it.)

All that said, I thought that was a great post you made there. And I fully endorse the concept of "self" as an independent spiritual entity.

I certainly agree that "self' is the only guiding force that we, as essentially non-believers can accept. Because that is what it all comes down to for us in the end, isn't it? That we decide. We decide based on our own experiences, our opinions, and what we've learned or taught ourselves.

Indeed, for the non-believer, surely Self must be the only basis for decision?

Is our self that powerful, some might ask? Yes. I believe that it is. This is not to say that the Self is always right, but our successes are our own, as are our failures. Aah, the Self is a wonderful thing. Thou art god...

LoreMaster, you've been quite quiet recently. Is that line yours? Very nice. Sounds very Nietzsche-like. I like it. But what are you implying? That we will inevitably create an order? For what? To struggle with or against? That we will create a meaningful structure to exist in? or to rail against? That the injured seek revenge? Or redemption?

--A

[Loredoctor]

LoreMaster, you've been quite quiet recently. Is that line yours? Very nice. Sounds very Nietzsche-like. I like it. But what are you implying? That we will inevitably create an order? For what? To struggle with or against? That we will create a meaningful structure to exist in? or to rail against? That the injured seek revenge? Or redemption?

--A

That's my line. However, it is influenced by Nietzsche. As for being quiet - well, see announcements
I believe we create order because it is our psyche that does so, and, due to necessities of intelligent evolution, intelligence needs to order chaos in order (pardon the pun) to survive. Or, order is intelligence, and intelligence profits.

[Avatar]

I'll check out announcements, been pretty much trapped in the Collective the last few days. Hope nothing bad.

I like it. Intelligence seeks order, so we'll create it regardless of it's objective existence/characteristics. I can certainly go with that.

--A

[ChoChiyo]

My spiritual beliefs are very odd and very convoluted, but the crux of my belief is that I (along with all other sentient beings) am so tightly intertwined with "God"--that I am a part of him/her/it and he/she/it is a part of me.

I'm in constant flux about what it all means and how it is all going to play out in the end--but I have a firm core belief that God and we share an essence.

I'm slowly, painfully struggling with rooting out the bullshit religion that was instilled in me as a child and opening my heart and mind up to the reality of God--and hoping that he/she/it IS the loving figure that Tracy knows.

[matrixman]

What atheist "dilemma"? It's only one if you make it so. I don't waste my time wallowing in mental anguish over this matter. Those who believe in a supreme deity go about their lives believing, and those who don't believe go about their lives not believing. That's the way it should be. I think the problem comes when either group starts insisting that it needs to convert the other.

[caamora]

I agree with you Matrixman. That is how is should be.

I agree with you also, Cho. One of the ways that I have found to rooting out all the bullshit that religions have instilled in me is to pray to God for understanding. He/She/It always clears things up.

I think the self that Ur-bane, Av, and Loremaster are talking about is equivalent to free will that Christians believe in.

[Lord Mhoram]

Matrixman,

You're such a sensitive guy.

[matrixman]

I admit, the tone of my first post was a little brutal. Trying to be rhetorical on a message board sometimes makes one sound like an arrogant bastard, heh. Avatar deserves a more considerate reply than that. (Must be my Jekyll and Hyde personality.)

I didn't say which "extreme" of that secular spectrum I agreed with. Maybe Nietzsche more than Freud, but if there's a middle ground between the two, I'd like to occupy that.

If I have any spiritual connection, it would be with the natural world.

Yes, that works for me, too.

[[Syl]]

I think this dilemma is the reason I have a problem with calling myself an atheist. To your average theist, sure, I'm an atheist. To your average atheist, I'm at best an agnostic. Yet I'm way too certain about most things to really be agnostic. *shrug*

The thing is, I know, I've experienced, the essential nature of the universe. I know my place in it all. And nowhere in any of this are there any signs of religion or God. Themes like that only come up in the logical extrapolations of things I already know, and I know it doesn't matter.

So I decide for myself what things mean. A great number are neither glorious nor wretched, but the fact that I decide for myself is, I think, glorious. I have freed myself from one level of programming, I am that much more the author of my own soul. It's a spiritual experience.

[Kinslaughterer]

Read George Carlin...He'll clear everything up for you.

[CovenantJr]

The thing is, I know, I've experienced, the essential nature of the universe. I know my place in it all.

I know my place in it all too. But if I were to tell someone else what my place in it all is, they wouldn't believe me.

Am I serious? You decide.

[Fist and Faith]

I'll have to read this thread later. (Gotta feed some kids now. ) But my response to Av's original post is two quotes.

First, b&b's sig, from Angel:

"If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. 'Cause that's all there is. What we do, now, today....Because if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness - is the greatest thing in the world."

And Walt Whitman:

O Me! O Life!

O ME! O life!... of the questions of these recurring;
Of the endless trains of the faithless—of cities fill’d with the foolish;
Of myself forever reproaching myself, (for who more foolish than I, and who more faithless?)
Of eyes that vainly crave the light—of the objects mean—of the struggle ever renew’d;
Of the poor results of all—of the plodding and sordid crowds I see around me;
Of the empty and useless years of the rest—with the rest me intertwined;
The question, O me! so sad, recurring—What good amid these, O me, O life?

Answer.

That you are here—that life exists, and identity;
That the powerful play goes on, and you will contribute a verse.

[matrixman]

I decide for myself what things mean. A great number are neither glorious nor wretched, but the fact that I decide for myself is, I think, glorious. I have freed myself from one level of programming, I am that much more the author of my own soul. It's a spiritual experience.

Cosmic words, Syl! Awesome way to look at the world!

[Avatar]

Agreed, and I really like Fists post as well.

Don't worry MatrixMan, personally, I didn't take your words "harshly" at all. Indeed, they brought a grin to my face.

Certainly "Dilemma" wasn't the right word, because I don't worry about it at all. And there is of course middle ground. Those were "extremes" afterall.

I just really liked the Nietzsche approach, that's all, and wondered how others saw it.

It's not to say that I necessarily live my life that way, only that the underlying principle of it is one that I tend to apply.

One way or the other, it makes no difference to me. I go on regardless, as do we all. It's just...interesting.

--Avatar

[Plissken]

Personally, I'm all for spitting into the void - and then turning my back on it to go search for pizza.

[Avatar]

Sounds good.

--A

[Zarathustra]

Probably not very surprising to most of you, I side with Nietzsche. I think his philosophy is the most inspiring in the whole history of philosophy (and religion, too). There is something tragically beautiful about a conscious being fully embracing his own mortality and the unavoidable, unattractive truths of such an existence, and yet in spite of the Abyss, he/she dances and laughs and loves and LIVES. It is not an inauthentic denial of the Void, nor a naive belief that it can be beaten, but rather a narrow middle ground of hope along the precipice of despair.

I think SRD likes Nietzcshe, too. This is exactly Covenant's dilemma.