Lena Topic

[Fist and Faith]

I was gonna say something along those lines. We all know danlo, and we expect a bit of overreacting. (And we love him. Maybe in spite of it, maybe because of it, maybe both ) But to leave the Watch because of Severian is to say that Severian is the Watch. That's giving him way too much power.

I've never seen duchess overreact. If you're Watching, I'm so sorry that this hurt you as much as it must have to make you leave. Please try to view it the way I just said, because we need you back.

[danlo]

Yes I am overreacting, and I can't help it! It's not against the Watch. I do take back the threat I made but nothing else...I'm still shaking it's going 2 take awhile 4 me 2 get over this. (sorry every1 else) I'll try 2 talk 2 duchess but I know I can't do it alone...

[caamora]

A personal note to Danlo and Duchess. We all love you very much and would miss you terribly if you were not to post here again. Please do not make the rest of us suffer your absence just because of the rudeness of one member. We all have our moments of being thoughtless toward others, even as much as we may try to avoid it. If I may, I would like to apologize in Serverain's place for his crude comments and careless attitude and I beg for your tolerance.

Severain, I understand the points you were trying to make. However, you chose the wrong words to start a discussion. They were insensitive and hurtful to many other posters. If you enjoy posting on this board, then an apology is necessary. If not, an apology is still necessary.


Thank you.

[Lord Mhoram]

It's not just Severian the two of them are worrying about.

[Earthfriend]

I don't really have anything to add, i just wanted to express my solidarity to all the members who have here posted honest reponses to what was a terribly put and inappropriate question.

Both danlo and the duchess are, (in my admittedly limited experience), more than happy to discuss any aspect of the Chronicles - including Lena's rape - when the topic is approached with the care, respect and trepidation it deserves and demands. I add my voice to the earnest plea to see them posting at the Watch again soon - thier loss would be a tragedy. Rarely have i met a finer group of people than here at the Watch, and the duchess and danlo are, imo, avatars of all that is wondrous about this site.

i feel i must also 'tip my cap' to Hellfire for her above courageous post:

...But the great thing about boards like this is that you have more than enough opportunity to restore charactor when it is in question. I hope to read better post by Severian in the future.

Such generosity of spirit is what makes you guys all so cool!

[duchess of malfi]

I think you're all misunderstanding what I said last night, or perhaps I just didn't make myself clear (which is quite possible). I didn't mean that I was leaving the Watch forever. I only said that I was leaving for awhile. The reason I said this was because I was, to be perfectly frank, so pissed off by that insensitive thread. I have a very bad temper, and rather than take the chance of really screeching and hollering and flaming Severian, I have chosen to taken some time (maybe a few days or so) off and cool down. That's all. So I am going to take a little vacation, and when I get back here fulltime my lost temper will have been found, and I can treat everyone with the respect and courtesy they deserve as fellow members. In actuality, I haven't left, as someone keeps sending me messages, which I have dropping by to answer. I think he might be doing it on purpose.

[Skyweir]

well this is what happens when you go off to have exploratory surgery .. lol .. i got out of hospital today and this is the first time I've been able to check my email and got some concerned emails from some concerned members

I havent been privy to the thread or the comments .. yet I am happy to know that our High Lord has addressed this issue! We love you guys and love having you here .. and I 100% support what Jay has said here ..

Sev .. if you're the same Sev we've had before .. you're known to us .. and you know what Kevins Watch is all about .. and what it means to be a respected member of this excellent community of TCTC fans .. and undoubtedly you must know the kind of behaviour that is expected here ..

and having said that .. I 100% support Jay's call for greater tolerance .. and a move away from this kind of reactionary response to even a view we vehemently disagree with ..

We all need to remember why we're here .. and why this site is here .. its not about pissing contests .. or about undermining the good that is Kevins Watch .. or for that matter that is even the ethos of the Land ..

sev .. danlo and duchess .. you are all valued members .. whether new or old .. we dont want to lose any of you ..

Sev if it has been brought to your attention that you have insensitively expressed your views .. as it has .. well we all can be rash .. but take it on board and do the right thing .. It is important to remember that this site has a diverse membership base .. scanning a broad range of ages and backgrounds .. it is wise not to take your audience as being the same as you .. We have kids here and much much older members .. the language we chose must reflect our respect for this diversity ..

danlo and duchess .. this place would experience a great loss without you both and you know you could never leave ..

duchess .. you will be missed during your few day cooling down time .. we were informed this time was an indefinate determination .. and I for one am glad its not ..

[danlo]

Covenant Fan said:

Interesting that I and several others are responding intelligently to the "Lena" question, while the first 10 or so responses to Severian's post were so shrill. Maybe the recent posters were able to get a good night's sleep. . .

You r a brand new member on this board, you don't even know us--who are you 2 ever begin 2 say anything like this? It's not like we make it a habit 2 be "shrill". Intellegent my ass! U r very strange, and have questionable morals 2 even begin 2 support such a thing.

[Vain]

It may begin to make sense when you realise that covenant_fan and severian are one and the same danlo.

And boy, am I glad jay is back

[Prince of Amber]

I wonder if I'm in a minority? I never have dreams of a violent nature. I have weird, vivid dreams (where you actually believe its real for a while) but they tend to be of the - I have my finals in the morning and I haven't done any revision, oh my God I'll fail and let down my whole family- type or where I'm naked in a supermarket miles from home. I have never, injured / raped / killed someone in any dream. I don't dream so much as I did as a kid, but I still occasionally wake in a cold sweat, thinking that the house is on fire. One time I thought my bottom and top jaws had fused together and I couldn't open my mouth - you can believe how relieved I was to wake up from that one.
I do get annoyed at people during waking hours, road rage, trolly rage etc., I honestly believe I am more likely to harm someone whilst awake than when I'm dreaming - but I just wouldn't do that. I'm no Saint, in fact I think I'm just a coward. What are dreams? do they reflect some inner personality? do you become the person you want to be in the dream world?
Of course Covenant was a very special case, being cured of leprosy and all and suddenly becoming potent, but as I've said before the dream excuse doesn't work, and I don't think SRD wanted it to. Its not alright, it could never be alright. Dream or no dream Covenant spent the 1st Chronicles trying to make up for it, even though he thought he was dreaming (and he was still punishing himself in the 2nd chronicles) and do you know what? I still didn't forgive him.

[Fist and Faith]

I've had very few dreams when I realized I was dreaming. IIRC, they've all been flying dreams. That's how I know I'm dreaming, because I suddenly realize I can only fly in dreams. As soon as I realize it, I start to wake up, and I have to tell myself to stay asleep. Usually that works, and I get to keep flying. Though usually not very well, and I get annoyed that I can't do better when I should be able to do any damned thing I please in my dreams!

I've had many many many dreams with tornados. I have wanted to see one in rl for decades, and I'm always frustrated when I wake from one of these and realize I still haven't seen one. So what I do now is, when I see a tornado, I try to figure out if I'm asleep or awake. I have noticed over the years that I cannot read in my dreams. I guess I don't have the necessary RAM to manufacture that kind of detail. So if I see a tornado, I try to find a book or newspaper or something, and see if I can read it. And to annoy myself even more, even though when I wake up I know that I only saw gibberish, I somehow think I've read something in my dream, and so must be awake. Then I actually wake up, and get frustrated again because I still haven't seen a tornado!!!

Even more frequent than tornados have been my snake dreams. Usually like Raiders of the Lost Ark. A friend once told me something about a snake energy that I must be attuned to, but I didn't know what he was talking about. Since then I have learned about kundalini and the chakras. Fun stuff, even if I haven't actually manipulated the energy within me.

And to make a mention of Covenant - I'm told it's a Covenant forum - in none of the times I've realized I'm dreaming have I tried to do something that I am morally opposed to when I'm awake. All my attention is on staying airborne. But when I haven't known I was dreaming, I've always acted by my moral code.

[variol son]

prince of amber i totally understand where u r comin from. most of my dreams feature me in increadibly embarrassing situations, or include my teeth shattering wen i try 2 eat something (im sure freud would have sumthin 2 say bout THAT reacuring dream). wen im awake im always wishing i could throttle or maim this that or the next annoying person, but ill prolly never do anything about it unless i start taking drugs. and i understand u not 4giving him. i can logically figure out y someone might 4give him, but as a survivor of sexual abuse, my gut instinct is that the dream excuse just doesnt cut it, so i guess i agree with TC himself. didnt he say himself 2 elena that nothing suffices?

and danlo, i dont no u well @ all, but i luv ur over-reacting! it shows that u have passion, & im glad 2 no that there r others in the world who can b both emotional and intelligent, because they r not actually mutually exclusive. mhoram was a prime example of this, as were TC and LA themselves, altho in different ways. just because the way severain worded his question made me want 2 vomit and break plates doesnt mean i took leave of my senses. (or at least not totally)

thanx kevinswatch 4 lockin the topic, & severain, i dont no u, so as a christian i definately cant judge u on this 1 incident. i look 4ward 2 ur continuing presence here @ the watch (which i think i must check more than my own email)

i think elena sed it best:

Mt friends, I am honoured to have shared life with you.

sum sui generis

[Fist and Faith]

or include my teeth shattering wen i try 2 eat something (im sure freud would have sumthin 2 say bout THAT reacuring dream).

I've had that one a lot too! So has my sister. They just keep crumbling and falling out! And sometimes it's because I'm smashing them together, and can't stop myself from doing it!! I suspect I'm grinding my teeth as I'm sleeping, and trying to stop myself.

[variol son]

its usually wen im eatin sumthin soft, & it is the 2nd worst dream i have ever had, 4 sum reason it sends me into this total panic. i do grind my teeth wen i sleep however, so there may b sumthin in wot u say fist.

4 the record, the worst dream i have ever had is the 1 where i had 2, 4 sum unknown reason, count 2 a million, & the faster i tried 2 go, the slower & louder i got. that 1 has had me wakin up many a time so sweaty i have had 2 get up & change my sheets in the middle of the nite.



sum sui generis

[[Syl]]

Alright, further off topic (not such a bad thing in this case), but my a few of my more disturbing dreams.

#6 - Dreams of apocolyptic events. WWIII, animals turned against mankind, viral plagues, and alien invasions (one of the more vivid memories I have, I could actually feel the concussion blast from one of the high energy beams).
#5 - Tons of flying dreams (some are prolonged falls, some really high jumps, some just barely levitating, and others full out flying), and most of the time I think I have to be dreaming, test myself, and rationalize that I'm not dreaming. "Gee, this is so easy. Why didn't I ever figure it out before?" I'd guess I'd throw in dreams where I can run forever or really fast here too. In a lot of these dreams, I'll realize what I'm doing and not be able to do it anymore.
#4 - No particular dream, but in several dreams I have died. Full out. Not this waking up right before stuff. Dead. Shot, stabbed, run over, fall, etc. I've had dreams I've died and gone to hell (the process of going to hell actually far more disturbing than Hell itself... an instantaneous yet infinite moment of torture), I've had dreams where I've died and become a ghost, and I've even had a dream where I died and was reincarnated (about 14 years prior to the date of my death... lived a whole 14 yr life in that dream, and when I reached the time of my original death, all of my prior life came back to me in a flash).
#3 - One dream I knew I was dreaming, and I couldn't wake up. I knew the only way to get out of the dream was to spell the words "dark park" on this scrabble board at my girlfriend's house. I got all the letters together, but when I went to place them they'd all turned to Ks. I didn't even remember waking up that day, just at one point about lunch I remember thinking, "Hmm, guess that dream ended."
#2 - Scarriest dream of my life - In order to get where I was going, I had to jump over a dead ox. I've never seen a real ox in my life, much less a dead one, but for some reason, that scared the crap out of me.
#1 - Making out with a dead asian goddess of weather in a bathtub. Don't ask me, I don't know. I've had many similarly disturbing dreams, and each time, even though it's me, I feel more like I'm watching the events than participating in them.

So yeah, I've had some pretty disturbing dreams, and I tell you guys this because I'm not ashamed of it. I'd have to reference the "Humans" thread for a more complete understanding, but I believe it's better to be in touch with your dark side, even to express it in dreams, than to completely stifle and ignore it.

[Prince of Amber]

See - I think I'd love to have dreams like that, maybe I do and I just don't remember, I read somewhere that it can be a vitamin deficiency that makes you unable to recall dreams (must do some research on that) I was upset about that because it makes it all a purely biochemical thing - and not, as I'd Kinda hoped a link to a different world (I do read alot of Fantasy!) . When I had much more vivid dreams, in my youth, I tried to chose what I would dream about, I can't think I had much success but I always wanted to dream about being a rock star, or a sports champion - ego boosting stuff. I have never wanted to hurt someone or something in my dreams, but that brings me back to my original questions - what are dreams and do they in some way reflect our deepest personalities?

[caamora]

I did not realize that Covenant_fan and Serverain are the same person.

However, I sure do like Prince of Amber's sig:

There is also Love in the Land.

[Skyweir]

amen to that .. oh pure and fair one ..

[caamora]

[variol son]

dont worry caamora, i didnt realize either.

last nite a had a dream the a famous radio celebrity gave me a much needed haircut, but that i couldnt pay him 4 it so my mum took me to the supermarket & we bought vegetables.

the oddest dream was 1 where i met 2 angels & a demon, & they talked 2 me, but it was a purely audial dream, no pictures whatsoever. wierd.

sum sui generis