Hile Troy: what he could have imported from our world...

[ur-vile loremaster]

Hi all. It always occurs to me that once Troy was in command of the Warward and introducing homeworld innovations such as instant communication (ie the lomillialor rods), he would then have tried to introduce others too -- specifically weaponry. As a military strategist, he would have been supremely area of the importance of technology, and might also have spent time thinking of ways to improve transport etc. I wonder if Donaldson missed an opportunity there or if he felt it simply inappropriate to introduce the idea.
Anybody have a view?
cheers
J

[Zarathustra]

Yeah, I've got a view: Hile Troy was another part of Covenant's psyche, and therefore didn't actually have any military experience (might explain why he failed). He had no more military knowledge than, say, an author writing a book about a war.

Covenant even tossed around this idea, namely, that HT was created by his imagination to give himself someone with whom to argue, an opposite. Atiaren was trying to call Covenant. Why in the world would she get HT? Perhaps in her tormented state, she summoned only part of Covenant, the part that actually loved the Land and hated himself for his doubt. Thus, Covenant was subconsciously in the Land as HT, and his "vision," which was dreamlike and incomplete, was evident of the peripheral attention we give to our subconscious experience.

Just a thought.

[Avatar]

This certainly seems to be a common one. While I agree that it was theoretically possible, (assuming that Troy was indeed an independent individual, rather than, as Malik suggests, an extension of TC), that doesn't mean that it was definitely possible.

For a start, Troy wasn't an engineer, he wasn't even a soldier. He was a tactician. It's entirely possible that he had absolutely no understanding of the technology needed to create weaponry (what type of weaponry are you talking about anyway?) from scratch.

In the "real" world, he didn't need to know how to make anything. Certainly I doubt he could produce the weaponry that he would have taken for granted in his other life.

Without elaborate processing and manufacturing facilities, he certainly couldn't have made the majority of it. At best, he might have been able to get them making some crude black powder.

Without the metal-working technology to make even reliable barrels, he would have been limited to primitive hand-grenades or bombs perhaps.

There isn't any mention, IIRC, of any sort of metal-working being done. (I've wondered about this. We must assume that they could forge swords and horseshoes, because they're mentioned, but nothing is said about how they do it. Drawn directly from ore-rich rock with Earth Power?)

Without more from you though, in terms of what you're thinking about, I'm just reaching though. I recommend the threads in this forum called "Hile Troy's Strategic Mistakes" and "Defend The Land."

--Avatar

[KAY1]

Troy's existence in the 'real world' was never confirmed. When Covenant returned after TIW he called the 'think tank' and was told there was no-one there of that name, but of course being a secret military strategist they would never confirm due to security. SRD had a pretty good idea there as the question of the Land's reality was never proven one way or the other. I also wondered about the production of swords etc as you hear about stone workers and wood workers but nothing about metal.

[Dukha]

this is a thread of which I am sure SRD would hazard to go into in great depth as it opens up a can of worms re.technological advances in the land over the millenia....er none. The same is roughly true in Tolkien's world, millenia come and go but there are no major technological strides....

[High Lord Tolkien]

Yeah, I've got a view: Hile Troy was another part of Covenant's psyche, and therefore didn't actually have any military experience (might explain why he failed). He had no more military knowledge than, say, an author writing a book about a war.

Excellent, my friend!
I welcome all "the Land is a really a dream" theories because that's what I also think.

Covenant even tossed around this idea, namely, that HT was created by his imagination to give himself someone with whom to argue, an opposite. Atiaren was trying to call Covenant. Why in the world would she get HT? Perhaps in her tormented state, she summoned only part of Covenant, the part that actually loved the Land and hated himself for his doubt. Thus, Covenant was subconsciously in the Land as HT, and his "vision," which was dreamlike and incomplete, was evident of the peripheral attention we give to our subconscious experience.

Just a thought.

Oops, you just blew it though.
You assume that Atiaren was real in order for her to "summon" HT.
You are giving her enough reality to actually do something independent from TC.
I prefer TC'c idea about HT: "You are something I thought up" (bad paraphrase)



.

[KAY1]

this is a thread of which I am sure SRD would hazard to go into in great depth as it opens up a can of worms re.technological advances in the land over the millenia....er none. The same is roughly true in Tolkien's world, millenia come and go but there are no major technological strides....

I also noticed this, even in the 2nd chronicles when he has been gone for 3 or 4000 years, there have been no apparent techological advances whatsoever. Obviously having the Sunbane can't have helped but surely someone would have invented something!!! Even the other races in the Worls (Brathair, Giants) haven't progressed at all. I guess that would take some of the magic out of the land though if the Giants rolled up in a steam ship or cruise liner.

[wayfriend]

Of course there were no technological advances! Of course there were no modern day weapons!

In a non-fantasy novel, such issues would naturally arise. And they would have to be dealt with. But in fantasy novels (LOTR is a prime example) people simply don't think in mechanistic, mundane terms: they think in magical terms. For example. the Elves live forever--and they've had plenty of time to think. So why don't *they* have any technology; or metallurgical skills; or any apparent interest in the compostion and possibilities of the physical world? It isn't because they're stupid. And it isn't because Tolkien didn't think it through. It's because LOTR simply isn't that kind of story. It's about the spiritual essences of things, not about their physical properties.

[...]

Many years ago, when I was still mulling over "The Last Chronicles," I considered introducing various forms of technology (metallurgy and steam engines); but I soon realized that such developments would violate the fundamental nature of the story I'm trying to tell.

(08/28/2005)

When Hile Troy requests that the Lord's invent a means of communication, this seemed to have opened up a whole can of worms: Why not invent a whole bunch of things? Why do we need Hile Troy to even think about inventing things?

Perhaps Donaldson made a mistake here. The communication rods served a specific purpose in the plot. But they seem to have come at the cost of these questions.

Fortunately, the questions do have an answer: It's a fantasy. All these kinds of suggestions would make it into science fiction. Science fiction has a simple definition: fiction with science as a significant element of the story. Fantasy, then, does not. In fantasy, it is magic, not science or technology, which fills the role of a leverage for change.

Look at Kevin's Wards! The re-acquisition of Kevin's Lore after the Ritual of Desecration is in every way parallel to a civilization which suffered disaster, returned to primitive ways, and has been struggling to regain technology ever since - the stuff of thousands of sci-fi stories. So it's not like SRD is not thinking about progress! He's thinking of it in terms of magic, not in terms of science, is all.

There are many, many stories about fantasy peoples gaining technological advances. But they are someone else's story. This is Donaldson's story. It was placed into a fantasy setting precisely so that issues of technological advances do not enter the story. Precisely so that Donaldson can tell a story about spiritual essenses and not about material properties.

[KAY1]

I agree with this up to a point. As you say it is a fantasy and technology was not an integral part of the story, it is just the rest of us nit picking really. but maybe in a way it is a compliment to SRD that people want to know the inner workings and details of everything!

[Lord Defile]

In my opinion, if Troy was an extension of Covenant, the book would not have had a section from his point of view. So I feel it is safe to assume that the land is real based on the fact that Linden sees exactly the same things as Covenant and that the characters in the "dream" have thoughts of their own.

Now, assuming Troy was real, he would not have known how to make better weapons with the materials available to him. He could offer ideas but it would be the lore wardens who would make them, if it was even possible. Also, Troy would not have been able to take anything with him to the Land because he didn't know that was where he was going. On that note, however, Covenant did know that he would go back, at least after the second book, and I often wondered why he didn't carry a gun or some other weapon. He, at least had the possibility to take our technology to the Land.

[Cail]

Did he? Other than his clothes, did he bring what was in his pockets? I honestly don't remember.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Did he? Other than his clothes, did he bring what was in his pockets? I honestly don't remember.

A pocket knife I think.

And Lord Defile, TC was in denial and almost dead inbetween IW and PtP.
And I think planning ahead for events in the Land would have ruined the whole Unbeliever thingy.

[KAY1]

Also with the independent characters in the Land and reality of the Landline of thinking, in TPTP after TC was called to the Land the first time and rejected it the story from Mhoram's point of view still continued when TC had left the Land! Ta dah!

[Lord Defile]

Well TC did believe it before TPTP. It said he was waiting for the summons for crying out loud. That and after getting my butt kicked by a church group I would carry a gun around if not for the Land but for my protection.

And KAY1- not to disprove my point but the events in the Land while Covenant is away could be explained by his subconcious mind filling in holes. But again there is the part about Thoughts and figments of immagination not having minds of their own.

[KAY1]

It is a tough one indeed! But as I said we are all kind of nit picking anyway rather than enjoying the story for what it is. I think TC was quite wussy as he seemed to believe in a way the treatment he received he deserved so he accepted it all meekly. It would've been nice to see him stand up for himself!

[Lord Defile]

But if TC stood up for himself then the story would have been different and wouldn't have lasted as long because he would have fought Lord Foul (and probably lost) in the beginning

[KAY1]

I guess so but it still makes him extremely irritating! But as you say, that's part of what makes the story!

[Dukha]

hmm, I have a minor feeling that SRD copped out on this one but as it turns out for the better. You either have to accept technology changes etc and run with them and interweave them forever and a day once you start, or not bother. In the long run it is simpler just to concentrate on the story at hand and channel the narrative.

I must admit that I am gagging for a fully narrative of the time before Berek halfhand and earthpower per se. In the first chronicles SRD alludes to a civilisation that did not know earthpower and could at a pinch be roughly equated to a pre-industrial civilisation in our real world (not sure where I would hazard a guess at the time index for that one though!). The latest book has expanded the knowledge a little more but we see a frustrating glimpse of what could almost be a mirror image of our world that suddenly gets turned on its head with Elohim turning up, Ravers appearing and fire lions itching to blaze a trail down the side of Kiril Threndor! Could this be a reason why the technological "arms race" suddenly stopped? Perhaps up until then technological advances DID happen. After all there is mention of felling of trees and clearing of land for farming etc (a subconscious/conscious sideswipe at the modern day rape of our own world?).......

[KAY1]

I agree with your comments about 'pre-Berek' civilisation in the Land. SRD has always said that he has no intention of writing such a book which is a shame as even though we know kind of what happened, we still want to read the details. George Lucas did that with the 'Star Wars' films and it turned out excellently! From what we know about the Land as it was before Earthpower was discovered, it did indeed seem to be much as our world was hundreds of years ago. I have always been more interested in the emotional side though, as the people in the Land after Berek seem to have gotten rid of many human failings which were more than evident before Berek formed the Staff etc.

[Nav]

At the Manchester Q&A SRD said that the people of the Land don't have technology as we know it because they have magic and therefore don't need it. Lore is the equivalent of technology in the Land; they stopped cutting down trees because they discovered lillianrill to manipulate wood and gravelling to replace fire.

Also, between the first and second chronicles I think there's been plenty of 'technological' development. Just look at Sunder and Hollian and their roles in Sunbane-suffering society.