A Question for Believers

[The Laughing Man]

What would you say to: God gave us an idea of It like we give our children ideas of Santa and The Easter Bunny? How about the Bogey Man? Doesn't this idea of Heaven/Hell, punishment/reward all seem too human to be the Word of God? This is how we raise OUR children, with threats of doom and promises of reward, so are we projecting, only naturally of course, that our God, Our Father, would treat and regard us in the same way?

I would like to qualify myself as an unrelenting "believer" by stating my belief in an "Indescribable Force" that is not only present in the world around us, it IS the world around us, and that awareness is what it is, wht we are, what all is, but the "Indescribable Force, is not necessarily aware of us until It consumes our life force, and the totality of the experiences of our lifetimes, at the point of physical death, at which point only memories remain, if indeed our awareness remains at that point. Being consumed means "going to heaven" to me, I guess...

Voltaire - "If there were no God, it would be necessary to invent him."

[Prebe]

ShalotHSaR: I am not a believer, so I am not going to say anything here. But since you are clearly in the need of comfort, there is a post here about not taking the words of the bible to literally. (It's called "Is the bible the word of God?"

[SalotHSaR]

What would you say to: God gave us an idea of It like we give our children ideas of Santa and The Easter Bunny? How about the Bogey Man? Doesn't this idea of Heaven/Hell, punishment/reward all seem too human to be the Word of God? This is how we raise OUR children, with threats of doom and promises of reward, so are we projecting, only naturally of course, that our God, Our Father, would treat and regard us in the same way?

I would like to qualify myself as an unrelenting "believer" by stating my belief in an "Indescribable Force" that is not only present in the world around us, it IS the world around us, and that awareness is what it is, wht we are, what all is, but the "Indescribable Force, is not necessarily aware of us until It consumes our life force, and the totality of the experiences of our lifetimes, at the point of physical death, at which point only memories remain, if indeed our awareness remains at that point. Being consumed means "going to heaven" to me, I guess...

Voltaire - "If there were no God, it would be necessary to invent him."

Too human? A God becomes a man and dies for all humanity? There's nothing human in that at all; as I've already expressed in my personal hell statement, I would never wish to endure what Jesus Christ endured. Understand that I believe He did not simply die on the cross but rather that he was surrounded by demons at every turn during His persecution so that they made it as terrible as possible without actually destroying him before He could die on the cross. These were demons who knew and understood human anatomy better than any doctor at the time. They specifically chose the most terrible things they had access to without destroying Jesus before His time.

Look at the Passion as a reference. In the inner courtyard when they are about to scourge him, the men are frantic in a very messed up way. They're delirious in their possession of the demons among them. THe same is true later when Jesus is being led to His place at Golgotha (and even that place is as terrible as possible... everything leading up to His death is specifically designed to be as inhospitible as possible). While He is made to carry His own cross, one of the men specifically told to make sure He gets there in one piece so that the Jews would be satisfied begins mercilessly beating Him with great enjoyment. He's out of his mind. He's completely insane by the demon within him who takes personal glory at the whipping of the Son of God. There are HUGE AND GREAT TALES OF SACRIFICE AND DENIAL AND POWER in just those few sentences. But the mere fact that God became a man and died as a man to redeem us is the most beautiful wonderful tale ever possible. I cannot think of anything man has or will ever write in all history that begins to compare with the utter beauty of a creator becoming one of us so that he could die and prevent us from dying. It goes beyond imagining. It is the ultimate of all stories and so many stories revolve around this one utter tale of all tales. Honestly, how can you even begin to tell a more wonderful story? Nothing, nothing even begins to compare at all.

Invent it? Invent this story? I suppose someone would think it possible, especially since it is there already for the thinking. But had it never happened, I think all human creativity would be much less. For nothing ever happened so powerful before & if it was never thought of and never happened, then why think it? Just like Lasers on Star Trek & our own LASERs and everything that was once science fiction and is now fact or fact in progress, we first had to think of it in order to make it our reality. SO if Jesus didn't die on the Cross, if God didn't become a man, and if none of this is true but is merely fiction, then where is all the lead up??? No one ever comes up with the ultimate, most beautiful story ever told and ever to be told without a leadup. SRD had Tolkien. It's always an idea built upon an idea built upon an idea. But even now, 2000 years past Jesus Christ, and thousands of years into written history, nothing as powerful as this has ever been written. A GOD that becomes a man to save all humanity. IT is the most beautiful wonderful thing ever witnessed by ear, eye, or thought. It is the reason for which I live.

Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, Boogey Man. Yes, myths. But these are easily understood myths of fallacy. We realize that a bunny has no intelligence, no city exists at the north pole, and the boogey man is either demons or dangerous men bound for prison one way or the other. All of it is explained. GOD is not explained. To say that God is like the Easter Bunny is to MOCK with conceit those that do believe in God & Jesus Christ. It is to say that they are foolish and idiots! In fact, CHILDREN! to believe in such fairy tales as mother goose. It is a way of putting down people who have a faith in something wonderful and beautiful and to say that they are wrong & not just wrong but stupid and ignorant and useless and worthless and laughable and mockable and less than educated and not worth being taken seriously and small and feeble-minded and brain-washed and weird and uncommon and outside of who you are and therfore their difference makes you better!

Santa Claus indeed. Easter bunny.... Do you think that my Lord made these things or do you recognize these deceptions are done by some other part of the face of reality to corrupt society and make foolish those thing that are real and hidden?

Even in our favorite books with Thomas Covenant, the things in the earth are easily found at all times and when they are they are only for a time. Aliantha is something known to one series and in another its a bush barely surviving that no one seems to know about. From the one age to the next, Kevin has a power no one seems to understand and no one can claim to know why he committed the Ritual of Desecration. In the next age, no one seems to even be able to mend a simple bowl (although in our own world no one has that power) and we're slightly amazed at their stupidity and uselessness. In the early days of the Church, CHristians were cancelling out demons, healing afflictions such as blindness and deafness, and all kinds of miracles, Moses did a great many things, Enoch never died, so many wonderous things right in our own lives and our lifetimes where someone prayed for us and we were helped when we needed it most. But no one believes that Trell was able to heal a stone bowl in the 2nd age or 3rd age, or if I'm wrong, no one believes that some were able to command the earth and be granted wishes of any sort, people are simple, we're simple, we believe what we see. ANd yet, some people, like the unfettered and those that trained specifically to be a part of the land's defense in some way, such as the Loresraat, they were trained to believe in things which we would find impossible in our lives. yes it's a fiction world, but so is the past. No nation could exist and be so premier as was those nations mentioned in the Bible at the time of the Bible writing. The past was a powerful time. Make the Pyramids if you can! Make them as perfect & magnetically correct as they were made with the tools that were given them then. Make stonehenge and understand its true meaning as it was known then. Make Easter Island with your cranes and tugboats and helicopters, but wonder at what was made without any of those things.

In other words, I asked to please keep this to believers because there is something that is truly mystical about Christianity and it does not follow logic. Neither does the making of Easter Isle or even how it was done. The pyramids themselves make no sense. It isn't like the twin towers in New York at all, it's like the tower of babel or perhaps even to be like when the first extremely tall buildings were made and the Empire State Building was named the great sky scraper. But it took society's current age of industrialism to make such buildings and really that building built in 1931 is still among the largest buildings on the planet. All the advances from then to here & it is still among the very tallest.

I'm just saying that maybe there are things that you or I simply don't understand. I'm asking for help to understand a particular thing here & making mention of other things or directing attention to this or that doesn't help me or others in my plight toward my or our goal. I'm just saying that I need some space. You can make fun of other topics if you don't believe GOd, but I just want this space, this single topic, this one sanctuary where believers can post without being questioned about their faith at every other post. Is that really so much to ask? If you don't believe... can you just stay off this single topic? Please.

[Cail]

LM, even though Christ preached forgivness, doesn't one have to ask for it? What I was taught in RCIA was that God forgave anyone who was both truly repentant and asked for forgivness.

[SalotHSaR]

LM, even though Christ preached forgivness, doesn't one have to ask for it? What I was taught in RCIA was that God forgave anyone who was both truly repentant and asked for forgivness.

Even though this is for Lord Morham & my answer is obivous, I think that it is worth stating. Yes of course. ASk and it will be given to you. Even if you barely, hardly believe it at all. IF you have a speck of belief in you; just a little bit, a nothingness compared to your atheism; if there is just one part of you that wishes to be saved should it be true, then ask God to give you His son's gift of eternal life by believing He died on the Cross. If even just a little piece, a smidgen of you accepts this, you will be granted heaven & and handshake and be great friends of everlasting life and our hugs will be so strong it would break a mortal's back!

[Nathan]

LM, even though Christ preached forgivness, doesn't one have to ask for it? What I was taught in RCIA was that God forgave anyone who was both truly repentant and asked for forgivness.

Even though this is for Lord Morham & my answer is obivous, I think that it is worth stating. Yes of course. ASk and it will be given to you. Even if you barely, hardly believe it at all. IF you have a speck of belief in you; just a little bit, a nothingness compared to your atheism; if there is just one part of you that wishes to be saved should it be true, then ask God to give you His son's gift of eternal life by believing He died on the Cross. If even just a little piece, a smidgen of you accepts this, you will be granted heaven & and handshake and be great friends of everlasting life and our hugs will be so strong it would break a mortal's back!

That is touching! I've never heard it put in such a persuasive and beautiful way!

[sgt.null]

God wants you to ask. He gives you many chances. it must break His heart when we refuse over and over again.

[Cybrweez]

as to non-believers, how can someone who never had a chance to know Christ be denied heaven? it has to be a choice. now all of here have that option. but there are many in the world who never got a chance to make that choice. i find it hard to believe that a loving God would deny those people.

Romans talks about all are held accountable b/c of 3 things: the Word of God, our conscience, and nature. Therefore, everyone has at least 2 ways to recognize there is a God. How God deals w/those who've never heard of the gospel, I don't know. It may be simple, they ask, and He reveals, directly, or indirectly, such as bringing around a believer.

[Cybrweez]

I just want to be clear here. You guys (especially 'weez) seem to be saying that it's through Christ or not at all, yes?

Sorry, but I think that's in direct contradiction of the Old Testament.

Well, Christ said He brought a New Covenant, so God doesn't deal w/man as He did in the Old Testament. I don't believe its a direct contradiction though, for everything in the OT is a shadow of Christ. Actually, a Jewish believer from Israel who speaks in my church frequently had a great message about the 7 feasts and how they foreshadow Christ. The Passover was pretty amazing.

And in even simpler terms, Christ endlessly preached Forgivenes. How does Hell fit in with that?

Christ also taught that God is righteous, perfect, does not tolerate sin(that's right, He's not PC). Therefore, sinners cannot enter His presence. That sin must be removed, paid for by blood. It was a shadow in the OT, the sacrifices of the temple. Christ became the perfect sacrifice for all who accept that gift. Jesus said there was one unforgivable sin, to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, who attests to Jesus' sacrifice. I believe its unforgivable to deny that gift.

[Cybrweez]

NOTE: Arguments for hell being temporary.

Matthew 10:28 (New International Version)
28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 12:4-5 (New International Version)
4"I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

NOTE: So is it possible then that this fire can burn a soul away? So that a Hitler will burn slower than say, my dad who never accepted Christ? So that there is a fair justice? Or is my understanding of this completely wrong because it isn’t about justice at all?

I don't see how these argue for temporary. I thought Jesus was saying to not worry about earthly trials, such as physical death, when your standing before God, who handles your soul, is much more important. Where does a temporary hell come in? Also, its tough for us to use the word "justice", b/c ours is much different than God's.

The first sin directly after the fall is outright murder when Cain kills his own brother out of jealousy and envy because of his brother’s close relationship with God. That’s the first thing that is mentioned after the fall.

I don't believe so. First off, we know the first sin is the Fall itself, Adam choosing Eve over God. He also tried to blame Eve before God, rather than take responsibility. They both tried to hide their guilt. So, Abel's murder wasn't the first.

[Cybrweez]

SalotHSar, great post in response to Esmer. I know there is a thread here about how the Bible is so inaccurate, a bunch of nonsense in my opinion, but I wonder who can explain other origins of the Bible's content. We know its accurate, so how did many writers over thousands of years write a single story? One that predicts events w/such accuracy, predictions made by different writers at different times! Such a moral compass, historical guide, poetry, love stories (Ruth a great story also, and a foreshadow of Christ), songs, and all made up! It takes a leap of faith.

[[Syl]]

Please use the edit function to avoid double posting.

[Prebe]

Therefore, sinners cannot enter His presence

Strictly talking scripture here:

Matthew 9:10 - And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.

Mark 2:15 - 17 And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him. 16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners? 17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Luke 7:37-38 And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment, 38 And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.

[Cail]

'Weez, I just want to clarify. You don't believe that God's Covenant with the Jews guarantees their entry into Heaven?

[Cybrweez]

Cail, not something I've put lots of thought into, but I would say the New Covenant replaces the Old. Although God is not finished w/the Israelites.

Syl, I know some get hung up on multiple posts, but that would've been a huge one, which some just get lost in.

Prebe, although Jesus was fully God and man, He gave up some things in order to come to this world. In order to come to this world, He was in the presence of sin. It was His reason for coming, to pay the debt of it. He took all our sins Himself on the cross.

[[Syl]]

Likely wouldn't have said anything if it hadn't been 4 posts on two pages.

[Cail]

So are you saying that God broke His word to the Jews/Israelites?

[Cybrweez]

Syl, I thought of that while I was posting and knew I'd get caught. I was hoping the page break might save me.

Cail, huh?

[Cail]

You're saying that the New Covenant relpaces the Old. Fair enough, but the Old Covenant (the way the Catholic Church I belong to and I see it) guarantees Jews entry into Heaven (obviously with the same provisos that apply to Christians).

If you're saying that Jews can't go to Heaven based upon the New Covenant replacing the Old, then you're saying that God broke His word to the Jews.

[Cybrweez]

Where does the Bible say Jews are guaranteed to go to heaven? And how can the same provisos apply to Christians and Jews? And I never said Jews CAN'T go to heaven. They can the same as anyone else.