A Question for Believers

[SalotHSaR]

As a Believer in God and a man that goes to Church and tries to obey God, I have really only one issue.

I raise it to you because some of you are very insightful. I politely ask that non-believers would please refrain from derailing the thread.

The issue is hell & I'm sure it has been brought up before, but I would like to revisit it. I guess the scholars say that hell was made for the fallen angels, but that because of man's fall that unbelievers will also be consigned to hell. I also understand that this is not a place to be taken lightly and that it is a dark lake of burning sulfur and that because humanity has souls which are eternal, that this pain would be everlasting.

Now here's my dilema: Is there any support to the view that souls are able to feel pain? Or is it that the real hell would not be pain but total seperation from God?

And that they are unending and cannot be burned away? Or perhaps the possibility is that souls can burn because they are not bonded to anything Christlike such as the Holy Spirit?

And is there support that anyone (any person(s)) really goes to hell or does not?



This is very serious. I don't really have a problem with anything else. I don't care if God created the world in a week or a nanosecond or a trillion years. It doesn't affect my faith. Nothing else really matters to me except the souls of 20 billion or so people who live or have lived and never accepted Christ or God. I would almost wish to ask God to take their places as a Christian sacrifice if I didn't know how anything about eternity. Most people can't even begin to fathom it; but I can get a notion of it like a forgotten word on the tip of one's tongue. I can see a little bit around my needle on the record advancing present and occasionally feel outside of it so that the needle of the present is also just a little bit of the future and the past, like a constant dejavu forward and back. I used to view the universe as a rectangle when I was a child and know I view it as a cone. I've become sophisticated in my knowledge of time and space more than most and for that reason hell frightens me more than anything most anyone has ever imagined. So I could never die for thier sins; not because I don't care so very much for them but because I know how very terrible it would be and I would become insane the instant I splashed into the heavy liquid of the dark emerald lake.

God is love; and yet so many believe that the unsaved are damned to an eternity in hell which was meant originally for the demons. And yet, because God is infinite & eternal, He would most certainly have known that Adam & Eve would fall, His innocent Son would be required on the Cross, and 20 billion or so people would be in this Godless dimension. It's shaking me at the foundations of who I am and I fear that there is little reason to do anything at all but to simply wait to die and go to heaven. I'm quite depressed all the time because of this and I've studied & I have verses that say all the things I'm talking about and yet I can't find an answer because they are all answers and it's like living in a padded cell in my own self-made asylum for the mad. I don't want to invent the answer I so desperately want to have because I know that even when we lie to ourselves that we still know that we are living a lie. But I don't want to just blindly accept it either because it is so very terrible, so very very terrible.

I ask that you would help me. I'll dig up the verses I have so far tomorrow/today, sometime. But maybe you have something for me now. Maybe the truth is what I don't want to hear. Maybe you have a way of understanding this that I have yet to learn. Maybe you know of something I haven't thought through a hundred thousand times in my ever circling journey through the wasteland of my barren faith. I do hope that you will think about it & answer me in some fashion. I'm prepared to hear anything, good or bad. My only request is that you would just try to help me to see. There's a lot of fun & giggles here, and that's fine. But I'm reaching out for help & I really need it. I'm desperate. I should have come to you sooner.

Thanks. God Bless.

[Avatar]

Just posting to bump this thread to the top, and to highlight this:

I politely ask that non-believers would please refrain from derailing the thread.

I'd like to suggest to my unbelieving bretheren that we stay out of this one, for now at least.

I've suggested to a few Members who share SalotHSaR's faith (and whose approaches I more than respect) that they visit this thread.

(Maybe Syl would like to give the topic header an appropriate tag?)

If SalotHSaR is interested in any of us joining in later, let him decide and request it. (I hope you saw my response to you in the other thread. Look forward to an answer. )

Peace always.

--Avatar

[Cail]

I've made it a point before that as a Catholic, I don't necessarily believe that you've got to be Christian to be welcomed into Heaven. I think that point is made clear by the Bible, in that the Jews are God's chosen people (so it follows that they'd be permitted in Heaven), yet they don't accept Christ as their saviour.

Maybe I'm taking too many liberties with the scripture, but I extend that welcome to anyone of faith.

Now here's where the contention comes in. What about atheists who lead a "good" life? I'm inclined to say "no". But I'm curious as to what other's think.

[Cybrweez]

I believe there is only one way to heaven, through Jesus Christ, as He said. I believe the Jews are the Chosen people of God, but that doesn't mean they go to heaven w/o Christ. I believe it means God chose them to spread His love to the world, which happened b/c of the rejection of Jesus.

SalotHSar, its hard to answer some of your concerns in your post, b/c I really know nothing about you. I believe there is a hell. What it is exactly, isn't important to me, and I don't dwell on it, b/c I believe Jesus provided my "way out". I also believe its not wise to, let's say, "self-reflect" to much. Jesus calls us to love others more than ourself, which means, I should spend my time thinkin of the needs of others. Depression can stem from thinking to much about myself, whereas thinking about and helping others will rarely ever lead to depression.

As for the question of a loving God creating hell, its tough. Not that I have the answer, but the book of Job is a good start. Job rails against the "injustice" against him, and God never tells Job why. Its like He doesn't want us to know why, but wants to know how we will react, what are we going to do about it? In another vein, Jesus says even the thief loves his brother, how hard is that? In this sense, when your life is great, its easy to praise God. What about when its not? True love doesn't care about the circumstances.

I don't know if I derailed the thread already.

[sgt.null]

i've always had the conception that hell is not living in God's love for eternity. that you essentialy shut down and cease to exist. the fire and brimstone was a way to get folks into compliance. to give them something solid to hold onto. and Catholic thought says that Job is story, and there may have been no one Job, but a compilation to tell a story. i know that the literalist will disagree there.

as to non-believers, how can someone who never had a chance to know Christ be denied heaven? it has to be a choice. now all of here have that option. but there are many in the world who never got a chance to make that choice. i find it hard to believe that a loving God would deny those people.

in the end, i try to do what is right. i try to live as Christ commanded and try not judge folks and worry about their fate. i answer questions as best i can and try not to harm anyone. not sure if any of this helped.

[Cail]

I just want to be clear here. You guys (especially 'weez) seem to be saying that it's through Christ or not at all, yes?

Sorry, but I think that's in direct contradiction of the Old Testament.

[Lord Mhoram]

Frankly, I simply can't accept that Hell fits in with the message of Christianity as a whole.

[Cail]

I think it does, in the sense that Dennis was talking about....It's an absence of God. Quite simply, void. Nothingness.

[Lord Mhoram]

Cail,

Well...in the New Testament class that I took last year, I learned that according to Christian doctrine, God is in fact existence. So everything exists in God, and everything is ontologically good. Therefore, Hell cannot exist.

And in even simpler terms, Christ endlessly preached Forgivenes. How does Hell fit in with that?

[SalotHSaR]

Christ endlessly preached Forgivenes. How does Hell fit in with that?

This is my predicament.

I'll be getting the verses I've compiled in a little while now. This is indeed a tough subject is it not?

[sgt.null]

because we are given many chances to choose. in the end we either choose to be with God or we choose to be nothing. i just can't reconcile a lake of fire.

[Lord Mhoram]

SalotHSaR,

I'm going to make an assumption here. I'm guessing that Hell is a near-fabrication. In other words, it may be mentioned in passing (didn't I read that the Hebrew word for hell was in fact a junkyard outside of Jerusalem? Kins?) in the Bible, but was trumped-up during the rise of Christianity. During the Middle Ages, for instance, if one didn't pay X amount to the Church, they would go to Hell. Hell was used as a threat to those who didn't support the Church.

[[Syl]]

Good topic.

Av, I don't think I need to edit the topic. It's pretty clear (though you could argue "Believers in what?"), but the parent post is even more clear.

Mhoram, the word you're thinking of is Gehenna. Another hebrew word is Sheol.

[Lord Mhoram]

Yes! That's it, Syl. Thanks.

[SalotHSaR]

NOTE: Arguments for hell being for the truly evil (those that knew God & still rebelled).

Revelation 19:19-25 (New International Version)
19Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.
Revelation 20:10 (New International Version)
10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

NOTE: It is interesting to notice that at least one human is mentioned here.



NOTE: Arguments for hell being for unsaved (those that did not believe God & rebelled).

Revelation 21:8 (New International Version)
8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Matthew 25:45-46 (New International Version)
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Matthew 25:41 (New International Version)
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 (New International Version)
8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power

Jude 1:6-7 (New International Version)
6And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.



NOTE: Arguments for hell being temporary.

Matthew 10:28 (New International Version)
28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 12:4-5 (New International Version)
4"I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

NOTE: So is it possible then that this fire can burn a soul away? So that a Hitler will burn slower than say, my dad who never accepted Christ? So that there is a fair justice? Or is my understanding of this completely wrong because it isn’t about justice at all?



NOTE: Argument for God being harsh in His judgment

Luke 16:19-31 (New International Version)
The Rich Man and Lazarus
19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[a Greek word is Hades] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

NOTE: These people such as this rich man in Hades, which co-existed with Paradise before Christ died on the Cross and preached to the dead, may have been in Hades for hundreds or even thousands of years, Cain for example. God doesn’t pull punches. The first sin directly after the fall is outright murder when Cain kills his own brother out of jealousy and envy because of his brother’s close relationship with God. That’s the first thing that is mentioned after the fall. Nevertheless, if my math is correct, that and whatever else Cain doesn’t warrant 3,000 years in the torment of Hades, does it? This, of course, is the God of Abraham, a God who would call up worldwide floods, destroy cities with incineration, and send angels who could kill hundreds of thousands in a single night. Once Christ enters the picture, that God is quieted. Although, the Bible does say that Christ, the Lamb of God, will return as a Lion.

NOTE: Anyway, now you see my position. There are arguments for & against this view of everlasting, unending, torment. Or maybe I should just be happy that I’ll live forever & ever in a place of everlasting, unending joy; where I can travel at the speed of thought and marvel forever at the creations God makes in the universe to enthrall us for all time, not merely to be singing puppets but instead to be truly happy and never bored in a heaven where our houses are all big enough and there is no garbage or defecation or rape or fear or war or hurricanes or tears ever again.

All references taken from BibleGateway.com
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

[sgt.null]

the New Testament seems to say that the soul will be destroyed. the language of Revelations is Apocalyptic, i was just reading about that Monday. i won't be able to get the book again til Monday. but i'll look up such in the meantime. i know that Cain was cast out, but do you learn of his eternal judgement? he could have reformed.

[SalotHSaR]

SalotHSaR,

I'm going to make an assumption here. I'm guessing that Hell is a near-fabrication. In other words, it may be mentioned in passing (didn't I read that the Hebrew word for hell was in fact a junkyard outside of Jerusalem? Kins?) in the Bible, but was trumped-up during the rise of Christianity. During the Middle Ages, for instance, if one didn't pay X amount to the Church, they would go to Hell. Hell was used as a threat to those who didn't support the Church.

Good topic.

Av, I don't think I need to edit the topic. It's pretty clear (though you could argue "Believers in what?"), but the parent post is even more clear.

Mhoram, the word you're thinking of is Gehenna. Another hebrew word is Sheol.

An interesting hypothesis. It collides with my viewpoint of the Bible being literal, but does not hinder it from being divine inspiration.

Mhoram, you speak of which Martin Luthur fought against, which was special dispensations which would allow a person to buy their way into heaven or eat a forbidden food or marry inappropriately and all sorts of ways to buy (make that bribe) your way in to whatever you wanted. Of course, there is also the historic tradegies of the Crusades and the Inquisition (and while both of these were not worldwide, they were terrible indeed).

Still, the Bible itself, has remained intact. My Bible has references to the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, thousands and thousands of words from which the Text has been translated. The finding of the dead sea scrolls verified that the translations are as correct as can be. There are some things missing of course. The Hebrew language is mathematical and some believe that there are formulas (not Divinci's code) which were easily known to those that spoke the language. Also, I'm quite sure that Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic languages had tone and inflection which would be understood by those that spoke the languages so that some words which might mean one thing to us may have had several meanings and vice-versa. But the Book as a whole, chapters as a whole, hold their meaning. There were groups of men who dedicated themselves wholehearted to the task as much as a fireman who believes in his work would enter the twin towers after a 757 jumbojet had crashed into them and try to save lives. You don't simply translate language or here Norman you take chapters 3-11. It is a work which was sweated over with love and devotion few ever feel and then which had oversight and readings and rereadings and such work took years to accomplish. So I believe in the Bible, but I'm willing to accept that the original writers, though Divinely inspired used their own language and explained things which they knew. Perhaps this is why John's Revelation is so full of imagery and yet sometimes makes no sense at all, as in the statement "the stars of heaven fell to the earth". Then again, it could be speaking of angels turning into demons and that the whole process of revelation is the history of the world. Who can know? So I accept that their views of government, politics, religion, and how they understood the world were written into the Bible simply because that is how they viewed matters.

I find your answer very helpful, although it brings more questions.

[SalotHSaR]

he could have reformed.

Yes, he could have.

The Bible seems to indicate (although some dispute it) that Jesus went to Hades to preach the good news of His death & immenent resurrection. Apparently, He could easily overcome the chasm, which makes sense given His life of miracle-making. So yes, I believe that Cain could have been forgiven. Even in his life, God seems to make it known that Cain is important to Him even though he killed Abel whom loved God with all his heart. I can't remember, but I think God said that anyone who punished Cain would be punished 7 times over & then He marked Cain.


This could bring up all kinds of things like
How were there people there if Cain & Abel were the firstborn
and where did Cain get his wife

I think that this is easily answered in that much time had passed and this is indicated by the mentioning of lands and places. Why mention Nod or the building of a city if there are only 4 people living just ouside Eden? As far as a wife, the reason people bring it up is to try to trip up people on morals. Of course it was Eve's daughter & Cain's sister. There's no other way. If you start with 2 that's the way of it.

Anyway, I wanted to mention that so that the thread doesn't get derailed and I'm thankful, very grateful for everyone being solemn with this thread.

[sgt.null]

well the marking of Cain caused some problems with various religious groups and how they interpeted it. and i think that goes towards showing that we have different views on this with various denominations. we haven't yet mentioned purgatory. well if you believe in the concept of a cleansing fire, just who goes to hell anyway? those who don't believe? but if you believe knowledge is necessary for choice, then hell would only be for those who reject God. and then hell become the ultimate rejection, a banishment from God's eternal love.

[SalotHSaR]

we haven't yet mentioned purgatory.

Hades. Special dispensations. Sure we have. But I agree with your end statement, UTTER OBLIVION = AWAY FROM GOD.