What God Wants *Debate (Believers Welcome, But Be Warned)*
Moderator: Fist and Faith
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ur-bane
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And there we have another disagreement. In the regard of "everybody is a sinner," I cannot concur. How is it right to judge everybody on one man's actions?
Even if you want to say that we can trace our lineage back to Adam, who sinned, how does that make me a sinner? There's part of the "brainwashing" to which the Catholic religion subjects its believers.
If my father or grandfather or great-grandfather is a murderer, that automatically makes me guilty as well? Bull.
I refuse to be defined by other people's actions. My actions aid in the definition of me. Not yours. Not Avatar's. Not Cail's. MINE.
Even if you want to say that we can trace our lineage back to Adam, who sinned, how does that make me a sinner? There's part of the "brainwashing" to which the Catholic religion subjects its believers.
If my father or grandfather or great-grandfather is a murderer, that automatically makes me guilty as well? Bull.
I refuse to be defined by other people's actions. My actions aid in the definition of me. Not yours. Not Avatar's. Not Cail's. MINE.
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want
to test a man's character, give him power.
--Abraham Lincoln
Excerpt from Animal Songs Never Written
"Hey, dad," croaked the vulture, "what are you eating?"
"Carrion, my wayward son."
"Will there be pieces when you are done?"
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ur-bane
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No, Nathan....that's not necessary too much. I have not taken any of your previous opinions into account when replying to the last few posts you made. I am taking the statements at face value without regard to who is making those statements.
(You commonly have a sacrcastic response style that I tend to overlook.)
(You commonly have a sacrcastic response style that I tend to overlook.)
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want
to test a man's character, give him power.
--Abraham Lincoln
Excerpt from Animal Songs Never Written
"Hey, dad," croaked the vulture, "what are you eating?"
"Carrion, my wayward son."
"Will there be pieces when you are done?"
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Prebe
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That's why it is called original sin.AMG wrote:But it doesn't matter who passes the sin along anyway, because everyone's family tree eventually branches back to Adam, so everyone is a sinner.
Av: I was thinking that the inheritance might be a spiritual thing, but I can't get much spirituality into semen. Sorry.
"I would have gone to the thesaurus for a more erudite word."
-Hashi Lebwohl
-Hashi Lebwohl
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ur-bane
- The Gap Into Spam
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LMAO! So I guess you never cried out, or heard cried out "Oh God! I'm ......"?Prebe wrote:Av: I was thinking that the inheritance might be a spiritual thing, but I can't get much spirituality into semen. Sorry.
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want
to test a man's character, give him power.
--Abraham Lincoln
Excerpt from Animal Songs Never Written
"Hey, dad," croaked the vulture, "what are you eating?"
"Carrion, my wayward son."
"Will there be pieces when you are done?"
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CovenantJr
- Lord
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- Location: North Wales
No one's asking you to, including God.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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I know lots of people trapped by that "freedom".The Modest Gentleman wrote:You're not free to have sex outside marriage. You're not free to hate thy neighbour.
That's what my question in another thread is about.You have to follow rules, I don't.
--Andy
"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur."
Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.
I believe in the One who says there is life after this.
Now tell me how much more open can my mind be?
"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur."
Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.
I believe in the One who says there is life after this.
Now tell me how much more open can my mind be?
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variol son
- The Gap Into Spam
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- Location: New Zealand
But if you don't then you burn in hell forever. And even if you do, you might still end up in torment. If you are a "sodomite" for example. I am no longer a christian for a number of reasons, and among them is the fact that since, as a homosexual, I'm going to roast anyway, I may as well enjoy my 80 odd years of life and not be burdened with all the shame.Cail wrote:No one's asking you to, including God.
You do not hear, and so you cannot be redeemed.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
No, I don't.
It really, really pains me to see how some of you non-Christians view Christians. You must have been surrounded by a bunch of dogmatic assholes to have such a negative view of my faith.
I can't speak for anyone else of faith, but CJ & VS, I love the both of you, and as far as this Catholic is concerned, you're both welcome into my heaven.
It really, really pains me to see how some of you non-Christians view Christians. You must have been surrounded by a bunch of dogmatic assholes to have such a negative view of my faith.
I can't speak for anyone else of faith, but CJ & VS, I love the both of you, and as far as this Catholic is concerned, you're both welcome into my heaven.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
Wow.variol son wrote:But if you don't then you burn in hell forever. And even if you do, you might still end up in torment. If you are a "sodomite" for example. I am no longer a christian for a number of reasons, and among them is the fact that since, as a homosexual, I'm going to roast anyway, I may as well enjoy my 80 odd years of life and not be burdened with all the shame.Cail wrote:No one's asking you to, including God.
You are no longer a Christian because your shame is so great that you cannot bear to bring yourself to God even though He loves you just as much as Billy Graham or anyone else on the planet. If there were no shame, you wouldn't bring it up every 15 minutes jumping over papermoons with a singsong Richard Simmons voice announcing, "I'm gay! I'm gay!"
Is that the total sum of who you are? My bet is that when the person you love and you have talks about God this doesn't come up unless your sick of talking about God and need a fast copout.
Sorry to jump down your throat, but I don't sometimes that's exactly what we need. Ask yourself if anyone at Kevin's Watch doesn't respect you and wouldn't give their time and money to you if you were in need. If someone posted, Variol Son has AIDS (I mention this only because you keep bringing GAY up) and he needs our help. Please write to him in the hospital, even a little greeting card will help. DO you know anyone, ANYONE here that would belittle that? Or do you expect that you'd get a whole lot of mail in that hospital? How much more do you think God loves you regardless of what you label yourself?
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Furls Fire
- Lord
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OH sweet mercy, Luke!! You still feel this way??? Just like I told Isaiah, not that long ago, how could God fault you for the way He made you? You are not going to "burn in hell".variol son wrote:But if you don't then you burn in hell forever. And even if you do, you might still end up in torment. If you are a "sodomite" for example. I am no longer a christian for a number of reasons, and among them is the fact that since, as a homosexual, I'm going to roast anyway, I may as well enjoy my 80 odd years of life and not be burdened with all the shame.Cail wrote:No one's asking you to, including God.
You, Luke, are a sweet, warm, giving and loving person. And I love you. "Love is never wrong". Love with all your heart Luke. God is Love, not fear or hate...
HUGGLESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
And I believe in you
altho you never asked me too
I will remember you
and what life put you thru.
~fly fly little wing, fly where only angels sing~
~this world was never meant for one as beautiful as you~
...for then I could fly away and be at rest. Sweet rest, Mom. We all love and miss you.
altho you never asked me too
I will remember you
and what life put you thru.
~fly fly little wing, fly where only angels sing~
~this world was never meant for one as beautiful as you~
...for then I could fly away and be at rest. Sweet rest, Mom. We all love and miss you.
In other words, believing that God wants you to burn because you're gay is as narrow-minded as the so-called "Christians" who want you to burn because you're gay.
Just about everybody else could care less what you do in the bedroom.
Just about everybody else could care less what you do in the bedroom.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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variol son
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 5777
- Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 1:07 pm
- Location: New Zealand
Oh, my sexuality is but a very small part of who I am. I mention it because homosexuality seems to be one of the great unforgivable sins of the late twentieth/early twenty first century, and the Civil Union Act, which creates a legally recognized relationship status as an alternative to marriage that homosexuals have access to, was a huge political issue earlier this year.
In America you have "God Hates Fags", and the President suggests amending the very constitution to prevent the possibility of gay marriage. Here in New Zealand politicians and high profile pastors spout rhetoric about children of homosexuals suffering abuse, and about their parents being everything from perverts to muslim terrorists. The National Party leader (New Zealand's version of the leader of the republican party) has even stated publicly that he represents "mainstream" New Zealanders, not homosexuals.
Hatred of me, or of a part of me, is waved in my face every day. It's very hard to get away from. And where there is no hatred, there is still stigma and seperation. Almost every heterosexual person I know, including my closest friends, think of me as being gay, look at me as being gay, and introduce me to others as being gay.
But that is all quite irrelevent to this discussion, since my sexuality was never a source of shame for me when I was a christian. The shame that drove me from the church was much more mundane.
I got sick of feeling guilty when I didn't go to the Saturday evening service, the Sunday morning service and the Sunday evening service.
I was tired of the "pep" talk I'd receive every time I said I couldn't be the worship leader at six out of the twelve services that month.
Being accused of having a "spirit of rebellion" every time I had questions about the church's youth group structure wasn't amusing, especially since said structure underwent drastic changes every month anyway.
I was told I had character issues and that I undermined leadership because I didn't blindly believe everything they told me, and encouraged others to question as well.
I am even credited with leading my best friend into sin because he decided that he wasn't going to manipulated into pushing himself until he had an emotional breakdown just to do more for the church.
My youth group leaders would manipulate the situation so that all my friends and I wanted was their approval, and then use that desire to squeeze every last drop of "service" from us before awarding as with their disdain instead.
If my step-father treated my mother like that, it would be termed emotional abuse and she could probably get a restraining order if she took a psychologist to court with her. It is violent behaviour in that it harms people with the intent of controlling their actions.
One day I decided that I wasn't going to put up with it anymore. Life is a gift, and I was not going to allow mine to be poisoned, even by those who believe they are doing so with the best of intentions.
Please note that I understand that not all churches or christians behave in this manner. this was simply my experience.
And I love you too Tracie! Thank you for everything you do and, more importantly, for everything you are.
In America you have "God Hates Fags", and the President suggests amending the very constitution to prevent the possibility of gay marriage. Here in New Zealand politicians and high profile pastors spout rhetoric about children of homosexuals suffering abuse, and about their parents being everything from perverts to muslim terrorists. The National Party leader (New Zealand's version of the leader of the republican party) has even stated publicly that he represents "mainstream" New Zealanders, not homosexuals.
Hatred of me, or of a part of me, is waved in my face every day. It's very hard to get away from. And where there is no hatred, there is still stigma and seperation. Almost every heterosexual person I know, including my closest friends, think of me as being gay, look at me as being gay, and introduce me to others as being gay.
But that is all quite irrelevent to this discussion, since my sexuality was never a source of shame for me when I was a christian. The shame that drove me from the church was much more mundane.
I got sick of feeling guilty when I didn't go to the Saturday evening service, the Sunday morning service and the Sunday evening service.
I was tired of the "pep" talk I'd receive every time I said I couldn't be the worship leader at six out of the twelve services that month.
Being accused of having a "spirit of rebellion" every time I had questions about the church's youth group structure wasn't amusing, especially since said structure underwent drastic changes every month anyway.
I was told I had character issues and that I undermined leadership because I didn't blindly believe everything they told me, and encouraged others to question as well.
I am even credited with leading my best friend into sin because he decided that he wasn't going to manipulated into pushing himself until he had an emotional breakdown just to do more for the church.
My youth group leaders would manipulate the situation so that all my friends and I wanted was their approval, and then use that desire to squeeze every last drop of "service" from us before awarding as with their disdain instead.
If my step-father treated my mother like that, it would be termed emotional abuse and she could probably get a restraining order if she took a psychologist to court with her. It is violent behaviour in that it harms people with the intent of controlling their actions.
One day I decided that I wasn't going to put up with it anymore. Life is a gift, and I was not going to allow mine to be poisoned, even by those who believe they are doing so with the best of intentions.
Please note that I understand that not all churches or christians behave in this manner. this was simply my experience.
Does god want me to burn because I'm gay? I don't think so. Who knows what he wants, or what she thinks, or anything about it. It's all a bit of a mystery really.Cail wrote:In other words, believing that God wants you to burn because you're gay is as narrow-minded as the so-called "Christians" who want you to burn because you're gay.
Just about everybody else could care less what you do in the bedroom.
And I love you too Tracie! Thank you for everything you do and, more importantly, for everything you are.
Last edited by variol son on Sat Sep 10, 2005 4:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
You do not hear, and so you cannot be redeemed.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
Wow. What religion were you a part of, VS?
In a strange way, it's kind of comforting to know that the USA isn't the only "free" nation with a party that's trying to curtail and limit the rights of someone based on their sexual orientation.
As far as sexuality being a small part of who you are - I once sharpened my teeth on an occasional contributor to the 'Watch who was positively obsessed with what others did in the bedroom and who they did it with. Ever since, I can't listen to the Santorums and Robertsons of the world without thinking, "Buddy, if you spent as much time and energy on what your Mom and Dad's sex lives as you do on the sex lives of those you've never even met, even your supporters would be telling you to see a shrink."
In a strange way, it's kind of comforting to know that the USA isn't the only "free" nation with a party that's trying to curtail and limit the rights of someone based on their sexual orientation.
As far as sexuality being a small part of who you are - I once sharpened my teeth on an occasional contributor to the 'Watch who was positively obsessed with what others did in the bedroom and who they did it with. Ever since, I can't listen to the Santorums and Robertsons of the world without thinking, "Buddy, if you spent as much time and energy on what your Mom and Dad's sex lives as you do on the sex lives of those you've never even met, even your supporters would be telling you to see a shrink."
“If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.”
-- James Madison
"If you're going to tell people the truth, you'd better make them laugh. Otherwise they'll kill you." - George Bernard Shaw
-- James Madison
"If you're going to tell people the truth, you'd better make them laugh. Otherwise they'll kill you." - George Bernard Shaw
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variol son
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I was a member of an Apostolic church. In America the Apostolic Church is considered to be a cult, but the New Zealand Apostolics have no ties with their American counterparts and are more closely associated with streams like the Assemblies of God.Plissken wrote:Wow. What religion were you a part of, VS?
The Apostolic Church is probably also the pentecostal denomination in New Zealand that is the most like the mainstream christian denominations (Anglican, Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian). So it's a little extreme in the way it's adherents express their worship, but pretty much the same as the rest of the christian denominations in what it believes and the way it interprets the bible.
You do not hear, and so you cannot be redeemed.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.