Of course it does. Don't be absurd. If there is no proof something exists, that works against the argument that it exists.CovenantJr wrote:There is no concrete proof that you exist eitherDarth Revan wrote:There is no proof of an existence of an omnipotent God, therefore he doesn't exist, that's a simple fact.
Seriously, though - absence of proof For does not equate to proof Against.
Where is God?
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Avatar
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I agree with Darth in the sense that lack of proof can be counted against the argument for existence, but it's insufficient to prove that argument.
However, doesn't the burden of proof lie on the person who believes the one extra thing?
Oh, and I agree with Cj that there is no proof that any of us exist. The only person whose existence you can prove with reasonable certainty at any given time is your own. (And even then, only with reasonable certainty.
)
--A
However, doesn't the burden of proof lie on the person who believes the one extra thing?
Oh, and I agree with Cj that there is no proof that any of us exist. The only person whose existence you can prove with reasonable certainty at any given time is your own. (And even then, only with reasonable certainty.
)--A
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ur-bane
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Av, you had me right up until here:
How do you draw that conclusion?Avatar wrote:The only person whose existence you can prove with reasonable certainty at any given time is your own.
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want
to test a man's character, give him power.
--Abraham Lincoln
Excerpt from Animal Songs Never Written
"Hey, dad," croaked the vulture, "what are you eating?"
"Carrion, my wayward son."
"Will there be pieces when you are done?"
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[Syl]
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It's called Solipsism, ur-bane.
"It is not the literal past that rules us, save, possibly, in a biological sense. It is images of the past. Each new historical era mirrors itself in the picture and active mythology of its past or of a past borrowed from other cultures. It tests its sense of identity, of regress or new achievement against that past.”
-George Steiner
-George Steiner
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ur-bane
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Thanks, Syl....I had heard of solipsism before, but never read anything about it or understood it for that matter.
Skimming through that entry, the concept seems to me to be preposterous.
Skimming through that entry, the concept seems to me to be preposterous.
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want
to test a man's character, give him power.
--Abraham Lincoln
Excerpt from Animal Songs Never Written
"Hey, dad," croaked the vulture, "what are you eating?"
"Carrion, my wayward son."
"Will there be pieces when you are done?"
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ur-bane
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Well, if it is true (NOT!) then I've go tone hell of an imagination. The best part is that I am then imagining things of which I have no understanding.
All by myself, I sent men to the moon, guided Christ to his fate, empowered Buddah, invented branches of science I never even heard of, temporarily eradicated smallpox, established a worldwide infrastructure, thought up the internet all by myself, persuaded Hitler to invade Poland, demanded the bombing of Pearl Harbor so that the US could enter the war, invented GPS, and invented all of you, among countless other feats!
I am responsible for every life and every death since I have been alive, and nothing ever existed before I was born. So I was wrong about having parents...I invented them too once I "appeared."
Damn, am I great or what?
All by myself, I sent men to the moon, guided Christ to his fate, empowered Buddah, invented branches of science I never even heard of, temporarily eradicated smallpox, established a worldwide infrastructure, thought up the internet all by myself, persuaded Hitler to invade Poland, demanded the bombing of Pearl Harbor so that the US could enter the war, invented GPS, and invented all of you, among countless other feats!
I am responsible for every life and every death since I have been alive, and nothing ever existed before I was born. So I was wrong about having parents...I invented them too once I "appeared."
Damn, am I great or what?
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want
to test a man's character, give him power.
--Abraham Lincoln
Excerpt from Animal Songs Never Written
"Hey, dad," croaked the vulture, "what are you eating?"
"Carrion, my wayward son."
"Will there be pieces when you are done?"
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ur-bane
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Well, then you must imagine me thanking you.
What am I imagining now?
What about now?
Now.
And now?
What am I imagining now?
What about now?
Now.
And now?
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want
to test a man's character, give him power.
--Abraham Lincoln
Excerpt from Animal Songs Never Written
"Hey, dad," croaked the vulture, "what are you eating?"
"Carrion, my wayward son."
"Will there be pieces when you are done?"
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I don't know. It's an attractive idea to me, and probably one that sub-consciously, I still tend to cling to.
As I sit here at my desk, how do I know that anything outside of my current frame of perception exists? I can assume, I can think, hope or trust, but I cannot prove it.
This means that everything is a figment of my imagination, that my brain (senses) create for me at the time that I perceive it.
Think about it. Part of it no doubt stems from human selfishness/self-involvement. Do you ever think to yourself that every single person that you see in a day, driving down the highway, walking along a crowded street, every single person is a unique entity with their own lives, hopes, dreams, ambitions and problems?
It's mind-boggling. Utterly mind-boggling. (I told you I have empathy problems. )
--A
As I sit here at my desk, how do I know that anything outside of my current frame of perception exists? I can assume, I can think, hope or trust, but I cannot prove it.
This means that everything is a figment of my imagination, that my brain (senses) create for me at the time that I perceive it.
Think about it. Part of it no doubt stems from human selfishness/self-involvement. Do you ever think to yourself that every single person that you see in a day, driving down the highway, walking along a crowded street, every single person is a unique entity with their own lives, hopes, dreams, ambitions and problems?
It's mind-boggling. Utterly mind-boggling. (I told you I have empathy problems.
)--A
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[Syl]
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Eh hem.It's absurd. Idiots who think they are demonstrating philosophic interlligent opinion when in fact they are talking utter crap; as though any of you actually believe that.
"It is not the literal past that rules us, save, possibly, in a biological sense. It is images of the past. Each new historical era mirrors itself in the picture and active mythology of its past or of a past borrowed from other cultures. It tests its sense of identity, of regress or new achievement against that past.”
-George Steiner
-George Steiner
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ur-bane
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Syl, my apologies for my jibes. No offense intended. I do not subscribe to that train of thought...but I went about expressing myself in the wrong way.
Peace.
Peace.
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want
to test a man's character, give him power.
--Abraham Lincoln
Excerpt from Animal Songs Never Written
"Hey, dad," croaked the vulture, "what are you eating?"
"Carrion, my wayward son."
"Will there be pieces when you are done?"
A good post. I didn't know people believed in that stuff. I apologise for any offense I caused there Syl. It is true *mouth twists wryly* I not the most tacit person, I say things the wrong way, I know.
Still, i suppose your belief makes a lot more sense than the Catholic one. Sadly however, I don't believe in what you believe in.
Still, i suppose your belief makes a lot more sense than the Catholic one. Sadly however, I don't believe in what you believe in.
Can change *your* universe, the way you percieve the world. It's a devout believe, sadly however, it isn't practical. I consider it a fact that our actions, no matter how large will not effect the universe. No minor human actions will effect the way the universe works. We aren't even able to move any humans beyond our own solar system yet, the galaxy or infinite sized universe wouldn't notice any small humans actions.The effects of one person's actions, no matter how minute, change the universe.
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[Syl]
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It's alright, guys. I know you didn't mean any harm. It's more of a tool I use to deal with the universe than an actual belief, so don't think your insulting my religion or anything. Besides, a lot of the time when someone mentions solipsism, it's synonymous with sophistry and/or pure egotism... probably because it is, in a sense.
That being said, it's always a good thing to watch your step in a religion forum.
That being said, it's always a good thing to watch your step in a religion forum.
"It is not the literal past that rules us, save, possibly, in a biological sense. It is images of the past. Each new historical era mirrors itself in the picture and active mythology of its past or of a past borrowed from other cultures. It tests its sense of identity, of regress or new achievement against that past.”
-George Steiner
-George Steiner
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[Syl]
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Be sure to drink some water. Beer, caffeine, and sleep dep will wring you out. Some magnesium will do you good, if you have it.
"It is not the literal past that rules us, save, possibly, in a biological sense. It is images of the past. Each new historical era mirrors itself in the picture and active mythology of its past or of a past borrowed from other cultures. It tests its sense of identity, of regress or new achievement against that past.”
-George Steiner
-George Steiner
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CovenantJr
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Ok, allow me to clarify a little. Absence of proof for argument 1 doesn't constitute proof for argument 2 when argument 2 is itself supported by no proof other than the absence of proof for argument 1.Avatar wrote:I agree with Darth in the sense that lack of proof can be counted against the argument for existence, but it's insufficient to prove that argument.
Did I say clarify? I meant complicate.
Not only was I inviting comments on Solipsism (:shifty:) but I was also having a thinly veiled jab at Darth for not coming to ElohimfestsAvatar wrote:Oh, and I agree with Cj that there is no proof that any of us exist.
Anyway, I like the idea of Solipsism. It may seem somewhat pretentious in a sense, but it appeals to my way of thinking. I think about most things in terms of perception rather than existence, and I often get the feeling most people are far too stupid to conceivably exist, and therefore must have been created by me
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Re: Where is God?
CovenantJr wrote:Did I say clarify? I meant complicate.
Amen (heh)
(The Esmer summons a ceasure:)
Martin wrote:An odd question to ask, to be sure... most of all by an Atheist.
But I want the believers out there to answer this question seriously, where is he?
If there is indeed a God like many claim, why doesn't he ever show himself? (Forgive the masculine pronoun) He did so many times in both the new testement and the old. So... where, and why does he not come?
^^^ Many might few this question as a joke or snide jape at those who believe in God; it is neither, I'm perfectly serious, I wish to know what those people who believe think of this.
Why do we have to assume that whatever created reality has to have an active participation in our lives? It gives us a place to live, to do with whatever we wish, and be solely responsible for what happens here. Are we to act like children, who have to be TOLD, and punished, or like Adults, who have the ability and the will to act like decent human beings, to make the very best of the opportunity we have in such a place and such a short time. I say take a good look around you and see what humans have DONE to each other, NOT what God has ALLOWED!And indeed, I DO believe, everything around you was brought into being, or Intended, by Whatever is responsible for the world we live in, so you see Its presence in everything you see, Everything is made from It, so must be It.
And look what we've
done with It.....