What God Wants *Debate (Believers Welcome, But Be Warned)*

[caamora]

Absolutely correct, Fist.

But, I am going to get back to the original questions. I've read so many things I would like to address, yet I cannot remember them all!

One questions was the fruit in the Garden of Eden and why would God place temptation in front of man. In many Christian religions, the story of Adam and Eve is just that - a story that was acceptable to the people of the time it was written. Without the scientific breakthroughs we have made in the modern world, these ancient people would have no concept of evolution. These religions believe that God began it all but that science has begun to explain it.

But here is another explanation: Think of the story Lord Foul in the Creator's world.

Another question was the difference between God of the Old Testament and Jesus of the New Testament. This was a question I also once had and someone answered that God the Father/Creator of the Old Testament was asserting his authority i.e., the world was new and needed to be made aware of his rules. Jesus, the Son of God of the New Testament was sent to add God's love for his creation. Urbane said

But it still makes me wonder why god suddenly changed his tune?

God did not change his tune, rather He wanted us to know that it was not all fire and brimstone.

Another question was does God want us to be good or to worship HIm? He wants both. Some have pointed out that this is an arrogant position for God to take and that they would rather not worhip such a conceited god. Well, with all due respect, He IS the creator of the world. Any being who is powerful enough to create a universe and everything in it, I would think is deserving of a great deal of respect and homage - and, I might add, arrogance.

[[Syl]]

[variol son]

Ok, I am going to say this one last time, and my humble and heartfelt apologies to ur-bane for not just letting it drop.

What does god want? Apparently she wants us to love one another and him. However, many churches say that unrepentent sin can keep us from god, and therefore prevent us from getting into heaven.

The key thing about homosexuality is it's not a sin that you can just stop, in that sexuality is a state of being, whereas most sins mentioned in the bible are behaviours.

So god doesn't like it if you? Don't swear. He hates lyers? So tell the truth. Incest offends her? Don't sleep with a family member. But homosexuality? It's all very well to say "don't be a homo", but being celibate doesn't change your sexual orientation.

It would be like telling Furls Fire or Cail to stop being straight. It's ridiculous, even if they aren''t sexually active, because lack of sex doesn't errode or override ones heterosexuality. That would be like saying that adolescents are bisexual, or perhaps asexual, until they lose their virginity, at which time they are assigned a sexual orientation.

Which brings us back to the question of god. We are told on one hand that all he wants is for us to love one another and him, but on the other that if we do this, or that, or the other, and don't repent, then she may just let us fry.

So are these addendums a true representation of god's feelings towards us, or are they the construct of the church in an attempt to control through fear?

I can only speak from experience, but my church was always pushing for us to "get right with god" and sort out any unconfessed sins. Some members of the congregation were down at the altar every week almost. And yet I do not believe that god is so cruel as to take some sort of sick pleasure in our guilt.

As my father's people say, "we are all of the source born". We all partake in the Wairua, the spirit that was gifted to all forms of life by Io Mata Ngaro to remind us of him/her, and I believe that we all share a kind of spiritual memory through which we can know what it is that god wants for us as both as humans and as individuals.

[Cail]

It would be like telling Furls Fire or Cail to stop being straight.

Whoa! Let's not start talking crazy.....

Well put VS. I don't agree with you, but well put.

[Fist and Faith]

I've kept away from this thread because Avatar picked one particular God to focus on - one that I don't think exists. And since the Upanishads, Koran, and other religions' sacred writings don't deal with that God, I won't dwell on my above quotes much. But unless anyone continues the conversation, I'll say this last thing: I don't see any difference between the books of the Bible, Upanishads, Koran, Talmud, or any other writings. To me, they are all the attempts of different people to figure out what's going on, and their place in the world. There are differences, even within any single book, because the different writers came from different starting points. One may have been brought up on fire & brimstone, another on forgiveness, another without much moral instruction at all, etc. In addition, for all our similarities, we all have different psychological strengths and weaknesses. It only makes sense that they had different ideas of the divine.

Another question was does God want us to be good or to worship HIm? He wants both. Some have pointed out that this is an arrogant position for God to take and that they would rather not worhip such a conceited god. Well, with all due respect, He IS the creator of the world. Any being who is powerful enough to create a universe and everything in it, I would think is deserving of a great deal of respect and homage - and, I might add, arrogance.

I don't know, caam. I just can't see a being with the nature and capabilities you believe of God wanting worship or being arrogant. If I figured out how to create life, I wouldn't be slightly interested in worship. What could it possibly do for me? Yeah, it would be good for the ego, and I'm sure some people would want it for that reason. (There's an old Twilight Zone ep... ) But I can't see that being consistent with an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving being. More than anything, I'd think such a being would be lonely, wanting an equal to have a conversation with.

[variol son]

It would be like telling Furls Fire or Cail to stop being straight.

Whoa! Let's not start talking crazy.....

Heh. Just admit that it's a problem Cail, and god will give the strength to change.

I just can't see a being with the nature and capabilities you believe of God wanting worship or being arrogant. If I figured out how to create life, I wouldn't be slightly interested in worship. What could it possibly do for me? Yeah, it would be good for the ego, and I'm sure some people would want it for that reason. But I can't see that being consistent with an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving being. More than anything, I'd think such a being would be lonely, wanting an equal to have a conversation with.

Exactly. In Waitaha tradition, Io Mata Ngaro took joy in the creation of life, and he/she interacts with that life by means of Wairua, the spirit. There is a respect and a reverence, but the Waitaha worship him/her no more than they worship the rain of the earth or the fish.

[Fist and Faith]

Well put VS. I don't agree with you, but well put.

I'm not familiar enough with your views of sexuality to know specifically what you disagree with. Care to tell? Probably again, but I've just never happened to see such posts of yours.

[Cail]

Sorry Fist, I should have been clearer. As far as sexuality is concerned, if it feels good, do it. A lot. As long as it's between two or more consenting adults, I don't care what anyone does with their naughty bits.

I disagree with VS's religious views, but I'm not out to convert anyone to my version of Catholic Christianity.

[Kinslaughterer]

There is an ultimate underlying problem inherent in any discussion of a particular religion. Assuming we are talking about Christianity, one of the main precepts of Christianity is that there is only one god and everyone must obey and worship him and accept that god is the only truth in the world.
Is that right or a proper way of looking at the world? By extension, the follower assumes that he or she is following the one truth and since it is or must be absolutely right all other things are wrong, specifically anything mentioned by that religion as "sin". This view can best be referred to as religio-centrism and just like ethnocentrism can be a very dangerous thing.
Why would god have such a problem with gays? Did he not create them too, for arguments sake? What is the issue? How does one person or even hundreds of thousands of gay and lesbian people negatively effect others? It is simply absurd.

As far as thinking the god of the OT set rules and "layed down the law" while Jesus brought god's original but previously absent love, I feel is really a seriously flawed rationalization. It seems that many of you have made some similarly extreme rationalizations in the name of Christianity Why would you do this? Well, it goes back to that basic precept that one's religion is the only absolute right and truth and defies one's own questioning of moral or ethical validity. Remember there was only one Jesus yet there are thousands of denominations purporting to know the truth. Do any of them?

I'm sure no one who believes will agree with me and how could you given the nature of the religion, but more importantly it needs to be considered carefully IMO. Anything that is based on absolute principles that prevent other ways of life existing undisturbed probably should be reconsidered.
Life simply has no absolutes. Religion acts as humanity's security blanket against the randomness of the universe. That doesn't make life any less fruitful.


All American archaeologist are anthropologists as well and I have studied cultures extensively. Everyone has different views of the world and most of those views are extremely old; originial created in the primordial soup of civilization and quite often they no longer apply to the world we live in today. My studies, modern, historic, and prehistoric, have shown me that although some ideas are universal, religious truth, unlike any other is relative...

I ask you to just consider it and, as I've preached in the past, read some anthropology, specifically some ethnographic studies of different people alive or extinct; it will do you some good.

[Fist and Faith]

Ah, I see, Cail.

[[Syl]]

As long as it's between two or more consenting adults, I don't care what anyone does with their naughty bits.

What do you have against masturbation, Cail?

[The Laughing Man]

As long as it's between two or more consenting adults, I don't care what anyone does with their naughty bits.

What do you have against masturbation, Cail?

heh


"I'm not a schizophrenic, and neither am I!"

[[Syl]]

Only counts if you use both h.... nevermind.

[caamora]

Fist said:

More than anything, I'd think such a being would be lonely, wanting an equal to have a conversation with.

All the more reason that God wants us in his/her life.

Kin, you are considerably better read on those subjects than I am. However, just as you say that world religions are subjective, so are scientific studies in many cases. What one scientist finds, another refutes. Similarly do the beliver and the athiest. What one person finds as spiritual, the other finds as nonsense. But understand, I am not trying to convert you. I am just trying to explain part of the Christian belief system. It is your choice whether or not you believe it. Nor will you convert me. I have found a spiritual place with God and He/She is able to fill my spirit as no human could.

Why is it that we only ever debate about Christianity on this board? Why don't we ever take on Buddism, Hinduism, or Judaism?

[The Laughing Man]

...What one scientist finds, another refutes. Similarly do the beliver and the athiest. What one person finds as spiritual, the other finds as nonsense.

heh.
I share your subjective reality....

[Fist and Faith]

Why is it that we only ever debate about Christianity on this board? Why don't we ever take on Buddism, Hinduism, or Judaism?

I have a little understanding of the Zen principle, but not really much of Buddhism, whether Zen or not. So I can't debate Buddhism.

But from my understanding, Hinduism has waaaaaaaaaaay more "denominations" than Christianity. The big difference being many Christians (I even personally know many) say that most other people calling themselves Christians really aren't, whereas Hinduism embraces all ways of going about it. Heck, I've heard that Hindus even consider Jesus to be their avatar of love. So while debating Hinduism might not get you intra-Hindu arguments (LOL I just made that up!), it might be impossible to get more than a couple of basic ideas to discuss.

[Kinslaughterer]

However, just as you say that world religions are subjective, so are scientific studies in many cases. What one scientist finds, another refutes

I've heard way too much of this here. Really, it is not relevent the my argument anyway. However, I encourage anyone to show me where hard science that has been throughly tested has ever been refuted. Some debates linger over expectations from studies like effects on the human body but the hard sciences are based on the ability to reproduce and observe phenomenon. But as I said before it is irrelevant...

I don't believe that you've explained the belief system but, through rationalization, created a piece of your own system. I think that is quite alright but don't recommend its use as a supplement of Christianity. I'm not an atheist either but more of an agnostic who wonders whether we have an real perception of what "god" maybe.

We can debate Judaism but its tenets are mostly addressed in the OT and really Buddhism is more of a way of life or outlook than a religion. I don't know much about Hinduism but I have never met a Hindu missionary...

[Plissken]

But from my understanding, Hinduism has waaaaaaaaaaay more "denominations" than Christianity. The big difference being many Christians (I even personally know many) say that most other people calling themselves Christians really aren't, whereas Hinduism embraces all ways of going about it. Heck, I've heard that Hindus even consider Jesus to be their avatar of love...

One reason to discuss Hinduism is that, if you keep talking like this, you might get me to "convert" to Hinduism!

[Damelon]

Why is it that we only ever debate about Christianity on this board? Why don't we ever take on Buddism, Hinduism, or Judaism?

I have a little understanding of the Zen principle, but not really much of Buddhism, whether Zen or not. So I can't debate Buddhism.

But from my understanding, Hinduism has waaaaaaaaaaay more "denominations" than Christianity. The big difference being many Christians (I even personally know many) say that most other people calling themselves Christians really aren't, whereas Hinduism embraces all ways of going about it. Heck, I've heard that Hindus even consider Jesus to be their avatar of love. So while debating Hinduism might not get you intra-Hindu arguments (LOL I just made that up!), it might be impossible to get more than a couple of basic ideas to discuss.

Ah. Perhaps you go a little too far, my friend, about Hindu tolerance. They are not, according to news reports, very tolerant toward Muslim shrines on Hindu sites in India.

[Avatar]

Aha! Now we're cooking with gas folks, this conversation is getting more and more interesting. Fist is right, I should never have limited the original question, but in my defence, the whole topic was a reaction to a different topic that was specifically about christianity.

Caam, nice to see you around again. Unfortunately, if we number any Buddhists or Muslims or Hindu's among us, they're not letting us know, so it's difficult to debate with them. As was mentioned though, I think judaism, for all its far more complex nature, is pretty much covered by the OT. And, (IIRC Menolly?) they're not much on proselytisation either.

(Which raises a whole new issue, as far as I'm concerned.)

Damelon, you really are back, huh? I think that is a different issue altogether. (Perhaps you'll provide some details/links?) It's not a matter of them saying you can't be muslim, just that they don't want their holy sites used by another religion. (Or am I wrong?)

I think that the thought that Cj started out on here is a very interesting one, and it comes back to what Kins was saying as well.

While I'm all for people re-interpreting their religion into a "friendlier" form, I do think that what was suggested is true. The folks who are accepting of this moderated view, are very likely so because they're good people at heart, who, just like some of us, can't accept the idea of a god so capricious.

And as usual in these matters, I find myself closely in line with Fist, in the sense that should there be such a being, the very fact that he demanded worship and obedience would sour me on his nature from the start.

In fact, in that case, the question wouldn't be "is there a god?" It'd be, "Is this a god I want to worship?"

I tend to think that a just and loving god should be just. And certainly the generally prevailing christian interpretation doesn't seem just to me.

Interesting take as well Ur-Bane, that by loving man, and doing him good, you are doing the same for god.

All things considered, I still share Kin's take on it myself. Religion at least, was a security blanket against the vast blackness of the universe.

I would like there to be some benevolent force. It's not even that I would like it to oversee things, or plan things, I wouldn't in fact.

What I would like is to know that Justice is meted out sometime. That the wanton killers, profiteers, etc. don't just get away with it.

However, if christianity per se is right, then it'll be me not getting away with doing good, because I lack one crucial element: Belief. And I can't accept that everything that anyone does, every effort they make to increase the worlds peace/joy/understanding/whatever, is for nothing, without that belief.

That would be a worse injustice than the "evil" for serious want of a better word, getting away with it.

I would rather there was nothing than that. But I suspect that, in the words of an excellent author:

There is no Justice. There is just us.

And that would suit me just fine..

Excellent posts guys.

--Avatar