Will we see Vain or his equivalent in the 3rd Chronicles

[The Laughing Man]

haha....come on, dude, Esmer is in the same type of character as the rest like amok, vain, etc, IMHO, and his self description, and special abilities point that out. He's more than just a "bastard" haha

[Warmark]

I agree. I got the impression that Amok was only intended to function once.

are we forgetting that Esmer was "made", and do we know for what purpose yet?

I may need to re-read Runes, but from memory I don't recall Emser being made - except in the sense that we're all made, by our parents. If memory serves, Esmer is the biological offspring of Cail and a merewife. Unless you're referring to yourself, of course

he's thousands of years old, dude....that goes slightly beyond "biological", and what of the "fierce theurgies"?

Do we now he was ''created'' at the time Cail first returned to the Merewives?

Perhaps Cail was kept alive for years by the merwives before he finally died ( if he even did die? )

[The Laughing Man]

" I am the son of Cail and merewives. I descend from the blood and power and betrayal of Elohim, as from other theurgies.....I am made to be what I am, divided against myself, and eternally at war......Wildwielder, I am Elohim and Haruchai, theurgy and skill.....I have wandered the earth for millenia in pain, waiting for you...

this is clear to me, IMHO, that Esmer was made, and for specific purposes, just like the others, but somehow all this seems to have "slipped under the radar". Haruchai don't live for millenia, and am not sure right now about the merewives, but its his "being made" that makes him "immortal", so to speak. good points/questions, Warmark.

[Warmark]

Fair enough, i was wrong!

I still think he is living rather then a made thing, like Amok.
IMHO, is the elohim side of him that has given him long, (everlasting ?) life.

[The Laughing Man]

heh. (see edit above) no clue? I think, as usual, that SRD is "taunting" us agian with deliberate "withholding" of info, as I haven't yet found any other references to Esmer's "origins".
The fact that he was "made", and has a "purpose" other than his own, which he cannot disobey, qualifies him in the same category.
And do we know that the others weren't "made" thru some kind of ur-vile, etc. "bouncy bouncy"?
Also, I am not saying he is the only one of such, just one of such, and I think there will be "others" coming in the next books.

[I'm Murrin]

Didn't you consider that his long life might have something to do with his being an immortal Elohim?

[The Laughing Man]

of course, it's just the other reasons for his existence point at being of the same character as the others. An undefined, to us as of of yet, and disobeyable "purpose" to achieve some "goal" of some outside personal interest.
What other character category does he fit in to?

[High Lord Tolkien]

" I am the son of Cail and merewives. I descend from the blood and power and betrayal of Elohim, as from other theurgies.....I am made to be what I am, divided against myself, and eternally at war......Wildwielder, I am Elohim and Haruchai, theurgy and skill.....I have wandered the earth for millenia in pain, waiting for you...

this is clear to me, IMHO, that Esmer was made, and for specific purposes, just like the others, but somehow all this seems to have "slipped under the radar".

Son-of-gun!
That does sound like Vain and Amok.
Good idea!

[The Laughing Man]

heh. (humble thanx!) Now we just have to "embrace the dread" and figure out WHY he is here! Some nasty players involved in this one, and there's always someone involved that is usually revealed with a "hidden purpose" at a climactic moment, too, eh?

[wayfriend]

" I am the son of Cail and merewives. I descend from the blood and power and betrayal of Elohim, as from other theurgies.....I am made to be what I am, divided against myself, and eternally at war......Wildwielder, I am Elohim and Haruchai, theurgy and skill.....I have wandered the earth for millenia in pain, waiting for you...

this is clear to me, IMHO, that Esmer was made, and for specific purposes, just like the others, but somehow all this seems to have "slipped under the radar".

Pah. Pop-eye says "I yam what I yam". "I am made to be what I am" means essentially the same thing: My actions and my motives are based in my heritage.

"Other theurgies" refers to the powers of the mere-wives, of course. And perhaps even the beyond-human tenacity of the Haruchai can be considered theurgy.

But, above all, consider this: Esmer is contradiction personified. He gives and he takes, he helps and he harms, he informs and he lies. Why? The premise is that this arises from his parentage - Elohim and merewives on one side, Haruchai on the other; innate power to control the world, and innate power to accept the world ("We suffice."); self-serving, and utter service; difficult of contradiction, and absolute convictions. Do not the Masters suppress Earthpower? They are the Elohim's natural enemy.

The whole premise of Esmer is the fact that he is the son of Cail and the Elohim via merewives - diametric opposites. This unnatural jigginess is what leads to this tormented soul being the way he is.

If he were 'made', who would make him like this? No. If Esmer is not the child of Cail, then the whole thing falls apart.

[edit: Esmer says "I am the sone of Cail and the merewives." Why not give this as much credence as these other things that he says? ]

[High Lord Tolkien]

His parentage I can accept by itself.
I always did.
I never thought of him as a construct like Vain and Amok but the *purpose* of his natural creation/birth could have been planned.
But this is the line I never noticed before: "I have wandered the earth for millenia in pain, waiting for you".
This seems significant.
It's almost like that's his sole purpose.
Of course the Elohim see all in thier "waters" (I forget the term or how, whatever they used to see the Sunsage and Ringweilder being one and coming to the Elohim's island) so that could be infering to that.
I don't know.
It does seem open to anything.
But he really does seem to be the 3rd series version of Amok and then Vain, imho.

Damn SRD!!!

[wayfriend]

But he really does seem to be the 3rd series version of Amok and then Vain, imho.

"The Enigma Guy".

[The Laughing Man]

wayfriend, in all your theories you claim to know what the "meanings" of those words were. Nobody knows, and thats what we are here wondering about. We know nothing of the actual "act" of Esmer's birth, and could very well be just a "gene clone" using a dna sample from Cail. Or they could have ripped his heart out and grew Esmer using magic. We don't know, but since the Elohim are involved, and Esmer has a purpose which goes beyond his nature, he is therefore a "tool", and given a proper eye it seems "plausible". I am just beginning to reread the original series, which I read as published and waiting those horrible "in-between" years, so I don't know, can't remember, and am asking; Who created Amok and Vain? And for what purpose? And was there any hint of "conflict" or "contradiction" of purpose involved? And were there any other characters like them? Where does Esmer fit in best, in respect to the previous books? Who do we compare him to?

[ur-bane]

Amok was a creation of Kevin Landwaster, and was the "way and the door" to the Seventh Ward of Kevin's Lore.

Vain was created by the ur-viles. He was a product of their Lore, actually, I think the word is "epitome" of their Lore. His purpose was mysterious, although upon his retrieval of the heels of the old Staff, I had a feeling about his purpose..

The story behind Esmer is that Cail and Brinn succumbed to the song of the merewives while aboard Starfare's Gem while questing for the one tree.
They were rescued by Giants, and Cail survived to accompany Covenant to the quenching of the Banefire. Brinn sacrificed himself and became ak-haru-kenaustin-ardenol during the quest for the One Tree.

After the Banefire was out, Cail requested that he be allowed to follow his heart. That led him to rejoin the merewives. What happened then was a complete mystery until Esmer showed up claiming Cail as his father.

[The Laughing Man]

I vote this debate deserves a poll and its own topic? I would like everyone to get in on this, I think it's very intriguing and very controversial! PERFECT! ( would you consider it, ur-bane, and perhaps do the honors?)(heh, I know that it's kinda the topic already, but I think everyone focusing specifically on Esmer could help answer alot of questions we all have about him. )

[dlbpharmd]

PM me with your poll question and options, and I'll do it.

[Avatar]

Interesting indeed. Having been trapped in the Collective pretty much exclusively for a while, I seem to have been neglecting this forum.

My unconsidered opinion is that I agree with WayFriend on the whole.

Ur-Bane said it well -- Amok was the creation of Kevin, Vain the creation of the Ur-Viles.

As WayFriend pointed out, Esmer is the son of Cail and the merewives. (Merewives though? Hmm.)

Still, regardless of that interesting thought, I don't see him as a creation. A being of earthpower, surely, because who is more earthpowerful than the Elohim, but then, Anele is a being of earthpower as well, and I doubt any would call him a creation.

Nope, Amok and Vain were constructed, but not, in my opinion at the moment anyway, Esmer.

--Avatar

[burgs]

I agree with Avatar and Wayfriend on this, although Esmer didn't say that Cail's sperm found its way to the egg of a merewife, and because of such an event he came into the world, that some placenta was involved, an umbilical cord cut, that anyone circumcised him, that he was breastfed by his mother - you get the point. He does say, interestingly enough, "merewives". (Right?) Still. Being the son of someone, well, you're their son. Amok didn't say he was Kevin's son. Vain...well...he certainly didn't claim descendancy.

Still...Elohim have purposes (the Appointed, for example) that they are destined to follow whether they like it or not. We have many examples of Elohim feeling tortured, and frankly, given the arrogant jerks that they are, it's kind of pleasant to see them suffer. Esmer's torture, whatever it is, doesn't make me think that he's like Amok or Vain whatsoever.

[Warmark]

A random though : could there be more than one esmer? ie Cail had more than one child with the merewives?

[Nerdanel]

My theory is that the Mahdoubt is Esmer's (decidedly non-identical) sister. I wrote more about this in the Mahdoubt thread.