"Finding" "God"

[Kinslaughterer]

Could be...I just report the news.

[sgt.null]

'religion bad' is simplistic. haven't the tools of science made killing easier and increased the numbers of folks killed?

[Avatar]

Yep, they've made it much easier for people to kill each other over their beliefs.

Sure, it's simplistic, I'll give you that. Certainly religion has been the impetus behind some things that are good. (There must be something )

--A

[sgt.null]

well the Catholic Church is one of, if not the, largest charity in the world. inspiring people all throughout history to sacrifice time and cash to lift up the less fortunate of the world. but hey, that doesn't fit in with the bleatings of the atheists.

[[Syl]]

*shakes head*

[Dromond]

*Picks up bottom jaw off floor*

[sgt.null]

thanks for the counter arguments. smug silence doesn't do much for debate. it's this arrogance that i find most disturbing. the hypocrisy of exibiting the same characteristics you profess to hate in religion. i guess only agnostics and atheists are intellectuals.

[[Syl]]

*bleat*

[The Laughing Man]

dam! you are surrounded sarge! chill, all I said was that the "cookie cutter" version was insufficient, not enough, for me to believe in. I have always maintained that some sense of "a diety" or "force" is integral to discovering life's mysteries. The ones we have currently in the world are all "constructs" to further an "idea" or "agenda" of the personal interests of the MEN who wrote these books and "said" they were the word of God. That to me is preposterous, and any man who claims to know the intentions of God is immediately verified as "invalid".

[Kinslaughterer]

More than likely studies will be able to show other connections to those ills such as socioeconomic levels, education, and historical particularism.

Take for instance, South America, the bastion of Catholicism in the New World; It has rampant crime, corruption, and murder. Is the connection a cause and effect? I venture it safe to say that it is far more complicated than that but it is very interesting.

[Plissken]

thanks for the counter arguments. smug silence doesn't do much for debate. it's this arrogance that i find most disturbing. the hypocrisy of exibiting the same characteristics you profess to hate in religion. i guess only agnostics and atheists are intellectuals.

dennis, do you really want to do this dance again?

Yup, the Mother Church has spent the last 75 years or so doing great works of charity. Before that? Crusades, Witchhunts, Inquisitions, suppression (a kind word, that!) of science, manipulation of leaders of nations in the name of its own power, fostering racism, sexism, and several other isms right into the 20th century and beyond...

You know what? Let's just pretend that we've done this dance again and sit together in smug silence.

[Dromond]

Dennis, I can say things like:

You really should read history books not written by your church.

People did not go gently into catholicism, they joined or were tortured, and killed, their families stripped of their wealth.

The 'Holy church' single handedly brought on the 'Dark Ages' with their love of illiteracy, and their fear of science...

But I know I'm wasting my time with you.

If really, you would like to have a debate, consider that spending some hours of my time would be spent (re)researching the many well sourced books I have to my immediate left, then some more hours typing in my thoughts into this discussion board, I will expect you to at least read and acknowledge all this and not just google a couple keywords and repeat the urls that appear.

That is your modus operandi, and it's boring.

( And If that's not bleating...)

[Fist and Faith]

Yep, they've made it much easier for people to kill each other over their beliefs.

My belief is that killers will be killers. Joining any particular religion will not make one a killer, nor stop one from killing. Killers who are Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, or anything else, twist that religion's words to support their desire to kill.

Sure, it's simplistic, I'll give you that. Certainly religion has been the impetus behind some things that are good. (There must be something )

Aah, Bach!!

[The Laughing Man]

(The Terminator) "I'll be Bach.....you be Mozart."

[Prebe]

Fist: You don't think that certain militant branches of some religions can indoctrinate you to become a killer?

My thought is, that the more you are sure of the afterlife, the less respect you will have for this one.

[Dromond]

Most assuredly, Prebe...

Just as the bible tells slaves to be obedient to their masters, so eternal reward will follow.

Sickening.

[sgt.null]

Dromond... i'll exchange numbers.
you bring my Church on one side.

i get everyone else. such folks like Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot...

but thanks for your condescending attitude.

[Dromond]

Hitler was Catholic.

[[Syl]]

Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side'

RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today.

According to the study, belief in and worship of God are not only unnecessary for a healthy society but may actually contribute to social problems.

The study counters the view of believers that religion is necessary to provide the moral and ethical foundations of a healthy society.

It compares the social peformance of relatively secular countries, such as Britain, with the US, where the majority believes in a creator rather than the theory of evolution. Many conservative evangelicals in the US consider Darwinism to be a social evil, believing that it inspires atheism and amorality.

Many liberal Christians and believers of other faiths hold that religious belief is socially beneficial, believing that it helps to lower rates of violent crime, murder, suicide, sexual promiscuity and abortion. The benefits of religious belief to a society have been described as its “spiritual capital”. But the study claims that the devotion of many in the US may actually contribute to its ills.

The paper, published in the Journal of Religion and Society, a US academic journal, reports: “Many Americans agree that their churchgoing nation is an exceptional, God-blessed, shining city on the hill that stands as an impressive example for an increasingly sceptical world.

“In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies.

“The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developing democracies, sometimes spectacularly so.”

Gregory Paul, the author of the study and a social scientist, used data from the International Social Survey Programme, Gallup and other research bodies to reach his conclusions.

He compared social indicators such as murder rates, abortion, suicide and teenage pregnancy.

The study concluded that the US was the world’s only prosperous democracy where murder rates were still high, and that the least devout nations were the least dysfunctional. Mr Paul said that rates of gonorrhoea in adolescents in the US were up to 300 times higher than in less devout democratic countries. The US also suffered from “ uniquely high” adolescent and adult syphilis infection rates, and adolescent abortion rates, the study suggested.

Mr Paul said: “The study shows that England, despite the social ills it has, is actually performing a good deal better than the USA in most indicators, even though it is now a much less religious nation than America.”

He said that the disparity was even greater when the US was compared with other countries, including France, Japan and the Scandinavian countries. These nations had been the most successful in reducing murder rates, early mortality, sexually transmitted diseases and abortion, he added.

Mr Paul delayed releasing the study until now because of Hurricane Katrina. He said that the evidence accumulated by a number of different studies suggested that religion might actually contribute to social ills. “I suspect that Europeans are increasingly repelled by the poor societal performance of the Christian states,” he added.

He said that most Western nations would become more religious only if the theory of evolution could be overturned and the existence of God scientifically proven. Likewise, the theory of evolution would not enjoy majority support in the US unless there was a marked decline in religious belief, Mr Paul said.

“The non-religious, proevolution democracies contradict the dictum that a society cannot enjoy good conditions unless most citizens ardently believe in a moral creator.

“The widely held fear that a Godless citizenry must experience societal disaster is therefore refuted.”

[Plissken]

...hastening the spread of plague by fostering and encouraging superstition, accusing their enemies of witchcraft and burning them at the stake for financial gain, requiring that all art be religious, and that all science coincide with the Papal interpretation of their Holy Book...