Amok and the Power of Command

[KAY1]

Not really sure if this is relevant but didn't Mhorham say in TPTP that he gained his knowledge from studying Elena's Marrowmeld sculpture of TC which TC had mistaken for a Bloodguard?

[dlbpharmd]

Yes, that is correct.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Most likely, the sum of all knowledge contained in the first 6 Wards would have led a Lord to "activate the Krill." IMHO, that knowledge would have led the Lord to the secret of the Ritual of Desecration. Mhoram intuitively came to an understanding of the RoD on his own, and by using this power he brought the blue gleam from the Krill.

You think it took all 6 Wards to learn the RoD?
Trell didn't need any Wards and Amok said anyone could do it.
I don't think the RoD is the ultimate or peak of Kevin's lore.
I also think that it wasn't Mhorams knowledge of the Ritual but after learning that the Oath crippled them it was the release of his passions, in spite of the Oath, that allowed him to interact with the Krill.

The Word of Command was the peak of "Kevin's lore" (or Earthpower) otherwise it wouldn't have been the last Ward.

[dlbpharmd]

Trell only needed his only stone lore and his despair.

Kevin designed his Wards so that one would necessarily follow the former. So what I'm saying is that the Sixth Ward must have contained knowledge of the Krill, but someone who had not yet mastered the Fifth Ward would not have been unable to unlock the secret of the Krill.

[wayfriend]

Damelon's Door cannot be 'natural'. It must have been made by some Lord.

I'm interested to hear why you say this.

First off, because it includes a teleportation device. Second off, it's too strategically placed to be coincidence.

However, if it were natural, then some Lord must have figured out how to pass through it without being mazed. And if some Lord could figure it out once, then some Lord could figure it out again. But we 'know' that that is not possible - Amok is the only way. Therefore, the lore was available to Kevin because the Lords constructed the Door in the first place. (Which, BTW, explains the name "Damelon's Door" sufficiently for me.)

Did you ever see one of those guys who can catch a bullet, fired from a rifle, in his teeth? It can be done, but who would want to try and learn? A natural Door would be like that - it might be possibe to pass through, but who is going to be the one to try and figure it out, when one mistake means "they will wander forever torn and pathless in the wilderness beyond" ???

Next we see that Amok does nothing special to open the Door - it's as if he simply knows where to push the right button, so to speak.

This is precisely what I believe. The key to Damelon's Door is purely and only the necessary lore. Amok had it. But Amok was constructed to not reveal it. Hence, when Kevin was lost, the lore became unobtainable, but not unusable.

If Kevin constructed Amok, then he had to know whatever Amok knew, and be able to do whatever Amok did. (Amok is, after all, a tool, an extension of Kevin.) Kevin must have had the lore, either from direct experience, or from his forefathers.

[drew]

...I wonder, if the 6th ward contained Knowledge on how to create a being like Amok?

It's kind of funny how we are pondering who made this door, but we just think it's normal that Kevin was able to Create a Life-Form!!

Why didn't he make a whole army of Amoks?

-Here's a conspiricy theroy: Amok said Kevin never used the power of comand; but maybe Amok never kneww he did...maybe Kevin made Amok Using the Power Of Comand.

[IrrationalSanity]

While the New Lords had not learned everything Kevin had to teach, I think it is safe to say that they had learned many things Kevin did *not* teach. Morham's understanding of his capacity to invoke a Ritual of Desecration, in conjunction with the lore he already posessed, is what enabled him to ignite the Krill with his own fire. This implies that they already posessed Lore enough to match the 6th Ward in power, if not in exact nature.

While the Oath of Peace prevented the New Lords from comprehending offensive lore, they probably matched or surpassed the Old Lords' understanding of defense and healing.

[ScrapOSamadhi]

Well, its been a while since I've logged on. I have a few minutes and reading all your conjectures made me go over the whole thing in my head again. I'll just list some points I remember.

It was Berek who was Seer and Prophet. This is stated by Covenant in WGW after Findail told him that it was he who placed the Guardian on the One Tree. Covenant wondered if he could have had a reason or been so short sighted to think another staff would never have been made (of couse he probably DID see what was going to happen and knew that the next staff would have to be made differently - Findail + Vain), but Covenant didn't know that at that point.

I don't recall Kevin ever being called a Seer or a Prophet, but he did have some foresight to create his wards. Atrian may have mentioned something like that in LFB.

I doubt the Giants were involved in making the Door or the passage. Also, I believe if ANY of them were there, the story would have been retold .

I have "The Atlas of The Land" by Karen Wynn Fonstad. It was "authorized" by SRD. Regarding Damelon's Door, it describes it as follows:

This is the location of Damelon's Door - a loremade passage. Only those (such as Amok) who have the knowledge may cause the entry to be formed. Without the lore-spell, those passing this point "will wander forever lorn and pathless in the wilderness beyond.

I recall that Amok asked Elena to pay attention as he opened the door.

This indicates it was an artificial creation. I recall later that Amok says one theory of the Earthblood's nature is that the Earth choosees to lay bare its heart's blood for those who can find it. I think there was an original passage in, found by one of the old Lords (at or before Damelon). Damelon then secured it with this doorway.

In TIW Amok also says:

Behold Damelon's Door - entryway to the Power of Command. For this reason among others, none may approach the Power in my absence. The knowledge of this unlocking is contained in none of High Lord Kevin'sWards. Any who date Damelon's Door without this unlocking will not find the Power. ... Now hear me. Pass swiftly throughthe entryway when it is opened. It will not remain open long.

I think this means he showed them how to unlock it, whenever they want. That unless he was there to show someone nobody would know how to get in. Of course he wouldn't be there unless they were ready.

As for the Ritual of Desecration (RoD). Amok said when asked if the Seventh Ward contained knowledge of the RoD that "Lord, Desecration requires no knowledge. It comes freely to any willing hand.". I don't think it was in any of the Wards. It is more a phillosophical discovery, and the level of desecration you can enact is a reflection of the strength of the enactor. Morham muses something similar when he relizes Trell has enacted it and that he was a powerful Rhamaderal and that he could probably bring down the mountainside.

The Krill is a weapon that was made to silecne the harm of the urviles. Probably by Loric, certainly wielded by him. When Amok returns (after leaving because the Lords themselves didn't wake the Krill) he says the Wild Magic shows the wisdom of my creation. I take this to mean that the paradox of "Save or Damn" and "the Wild Magic which destroys peace". It would stand to reason that the Krill responds to the emotion/attitude of the wielder (this is seen when Covenant stabs it into the table, Morham goes to touch it, etc.). I believe Kevin used this inherant reaction of the Krill to its wielder to trigger Amok's return. It stands to reason that you shouldn't find out about the Power of Command (the most dangerous/despearate weapon/tool in the Old Lord's resources) until you matured enough to understand the desparation of emotion and the willingness to self-sacrifice which would lead one to want to Command in the first place.

Well, that's all I have time for. Hope some of it made sense.

[Warmark]

The Krill is a weapon that was made to silecne the harm of the urviles

Was it not the viles. I.e Vilesilencer?

IMHO the 6th ward would have shown the uses of the krill which in turn would have called amok.

[Avatar]

Good post, ScrapOSamahadi. Pretty much agree, certainly about the door and Amok.

--A

[ur-bane]

A very good post indeed, SoS. I agree with most of what you wrote, and also agree that the door was an artificial creation of lore (and actually never thought otherwise). But, at this point, I have trouble:

In TIW Amok also says:

Behold Damelon's Door - entryway to the Power of Command. For this reason among others, none may approach the Power in my absence. The knowledge of this unlocking is contained in none of High Lord Kevin'sWards. Any who dare Damelon's Door without this unlocking will not find the Power. ... Now hear me. Pass swiftly throughthe entryway when it is opened. It will not remain open long.

I think this means he showed them how to unlock it, whenever they want. That unless he was there to show someone nobody would know how to get in. Of course he wouldn't be there unless they were ready.

I think that what you highlighted, in regards to the issue of the door, is not the important part of the quote. What does matter, is that none may approach the Power in my absence. The knowledge of this unlocking is contained in none of High Lord Kevin'sWards. Any who dare Damelon's Door without this unlocking will not find the Power.

From that passage, I cannot draw the conclusion that "he showed them how to unlock it, whenever they want."
If anything, the exact opposite is true. That without Amok there to perform the unlocking each and every time one approached the door for access to the Power of Command, they would not reach the Power.

We also know that Amok was made to approach the Power only once. The Power itself was his undoing. Because of this, I think we can conclude that Kevin, who made Amok, intended the Power to be used only once in a situation of dire need.

And in this I think Kevin erred.

I think Kevin should have made Amok with the purpose of explaining what the Power was so that a wise decision as to the purpose of use and the time to approach it, if at all, could have been made. Since Amok was dissolving from the PofC, effectively "dying," there was no way that Elena could have said "no" and still hope to approach the PofC again if she chose to do so (since Amok would no longer exist to unlock Damelon's door).

In essence, Kevin himself gave Elena, or anyone else who may have been guided by Amok, no choice but to make a decision right then and there, instead of having time to think it over. Drink it now and Command, or never drink it at all, and this Power shall forever be lost to the world.

As wise as Kevin may have been, like Foul, he left people no choice but to follow the path he laid out for them, influencing lives from beyind the grave even before the Law of Death was broken.

(I for one was glad that Mhoram heeded Covenant's advice to find lore of his own.)

[wayfriend]

Because of this, I think we can conclude that Kevin, who made Amok, intended the Power to be used only once in a situation of dire need. ... And in this I think Kevin erred. ... I think Kevin should have made Amok with the purpose of explaining what the Power was so that a wise decision as to the purpose of use and the time to approach it, if at all, could have been made.

I think we need to avoid technological reasoning here, because this is fantasy. Technological reasoning would be: this is a limited resource, we need to maximize it's potential. I think we should instead be looking for spiritual reasoning.

Amok's singular use is the outcome of Kevin's do/do not dilemma. Kevin was conflicted when he made the Wards. He has trying to save the Land by destroying it. He sent the Bloodguard away to save them and to sneak passed them. He was probably building those Wards in secret so that no one would reach conclusions. Etc. He was desperately balancing fear and doubt, avoiding the danger of easy power one one side and the danger of Foul's victory on the other. Amok is a spiritual answer - it's a compromise.

I believe Kevin used this inherant reaction of the Krill to its wielder to trigger Amok's return.

Yes. The awakening of the krill could mean either of two things. One is that the Lords have reached the penultimate pinacle of lore. The other is that wild magic is in the Land and it's the end game. Either the Lords are ready for the knowledge, or they are desperate for it. This is the 'wisdom' of the krill as the signal.

[High Lord Tolkien]

The Krill is a weapon that was made to silecne the harm of the urviles

Was it not the viles. I.e Vilesilencer?

IMHO the 6th ward would have shown the uses of the krill which in turn would have called amok.

Then why did the Krill "appear" when they returned to Revelstone with the 2nd Ward?

The Krill was meant to be used from almost the beginning of Kevin's Lore.
Perhaps the final mastery was revealed in the 6th.

I think this is how it worked.
It wasn't so much the activation of the Krill by TC but the emotion that was behind the use of WM.

"Lena! he cried. A violence of grief and self-recrimination blazed up in him. "I don't want any more." Thunder blackened his face. He grasped the krill in both fists, its blade pointing downward. With a convulsive movement, he stabbed the sword at the heart of the table, trying to break its blunt blade on the stone."

I think that if such desperate emotion was used with Earthpower instead of WM it would have summoned Amok too.
The Word of Command was a desperate solution for a desperate situation.

[ur-bane]

Because of this, I think we can conclude that Kevin, who made Amok, intended the Power to be used only once in a situation of dire need. ... And in this I think Kevin erred. ... I think Kevin should have made Amok with the purpose of explaining what the Power was so that a wise decision as to the purpose of use and the time to approach it, if at all, could have been made.

I think we need to avoid technological reasoning here, because this is fantasy. Technological reasoning would be: this is a limited resource, we need to maximize it's potential. I think we should instead be looking for spiritual reasoning.

Amok's singular use is the outcome of Kevin's do/do not dilemma. Kevin was conflicted when he made the Wards. He has trying to save the Land by destroying it. He sent the Bloodguard away to save them and to sneak passed them. He was probably building those Wards in secret so that no one would reach conclusions. Etc. He was desperately balancing fear and doubt, avoiding the danger of easy power one one side and the danger of Foul's victory on the other. Amok is a spiritual answer - it's a compromise.

I don't know that I agree completely with that. Kevin's Lore was his technology, even within the bounds of fantasy. He created his Wards so that the knowledge of the Old Lords would not be lost, and the lore could be used by those that returned to the Land. Regardless of his conflicted nature while creating the Wards, the intent was that the knowledge within them be gained. IIRC, the only two reasons that the Wards were still not completely understood were the Oath of Peace (which by its very nature prevented the gaining of knowledge of the destructive tendency of Kevin's Lore), and difficulty in translating the language of the Old Lords.

The progression of the Wards was deliberate so that all the lore of one Ward was understood before access to the next could be gained. Covenant interfered with that progression when he broke the Forbidding in the catacombs of Mount Thunder. The Lords were never meant to have that Second Ward at that time. Just as they were not meant to even hold possession of the krill yet--because it was the Second Ward which allowed the unlocking of doors in Revelstone, one of which revealed the krill.

And that in turn means that Amok was not meant to arrive in the Land when he did, as we all know. Even when he returned, the Land was not "ready" for him.

But all that aside, the way in which Kevin chose to reveal the knowledge of the Power of Command was a mistake in my mind. And even using spiritual reasoning, shouldn't one's spirit first be enlightened before making a decision such as the one Elena was forced to make? IOW, shouldn't Amok have been designed to explain the PofC, rather than lead Elena to it only to find out then that this was the one and only time that the PofC could be accessed?

[ScrapOSamadhi]

Thanks for the thanks.

Some other points...

The Krill didn't just "appear" when they returned with the second ward. Accessing it had NOTHING to do with the wards at all. It was the Staff of Law Elena said which unlocked doors in Revelstone which had been locked since the desecration.

Amok was "the way and the door" to the Power of Command. He guided them there and he "unlocked" the door. I don't think the single use was Kevin's intent. I take Amok's comment about none may approach to mean in my absensce if anyone tried up until now they would fail. He was a failsafe against unready access. Damelon's Door wasn't really a door but a gap between a stalactite and the wall of a passage. Nothing indicated anything special. What he said was if someone went by here wihtout holding out their finger to turn it into a teleportation device they would forever wander lost beyond. Anyone exploring the mountain wouldn't have known to do that and gotten nowhere.

Remember that Amok was astonished that the Lords DIDN'T bring the Krill to life on their own and that White Gold did it for them. This indicates that he expected them to be able to bring it to life on their own so I don't think it was waiting for white gold. He said Wild Magic showed the wisdom of his creation, but didn't actually meet the test he had in mind.

[wayfriend]

And that in turn means that Amok was not meant to arrive in the Land when he did, as we all know. Even when he returned, the Land was not "ready" for him.

I disagree. And Amok does, too.

As I said, I think that Kevin new that wild magic would awaken the krill, and that he would consider the presence of wild magic in the land to be sufficient reason to grant the Seventh Ward.

Amok says these things himself.

"By hell," Covenant muttered. "By hell."

"Indeed?" said Amok with a boyish grin that seemed to light up the laughing curls of his hair. "Well, that is not for me to say. But I am well made. You bear the white gold. It is for your sake that I have returned."

... Amatin asked Amok, "How so?"

Amok replied, "Lord, the white gold surpasses my purpose. I felt the sign of readiness when the krill of Loric came to life. I went to Revelstone. There I learned that the krill was not awakened by the Lords of Kevin's Lore. I feared that I had erred. But now I have traveled the Land, and seen the peril. And I have learned of the white gold, which awakened Loric's krill. This shows the wisdom of my creation. Though the conditions of my life are not met, I see the need, and I appear."

"Are you changed?" said Amatin. "Will you give us your knowledge now?"

"I am who I am. I respect the white gold, but I am unchanged."

Amok quite plainly says that he is responding to the white gold, and that white gold along with the Lands peril satisfies his conditions.

I admit, he does throw one off when he says "the conditions of his life are not met" and "white gold surpasses my purpose". When Amok refers to his 'purpose' he refers to the progression of the Wards of course. However, he is an automaton, bereft of choice. His reaction to the white gold and the peril was planned by Kevin; he's not being twisted or coerced here. This shows the wisdom of my creation. It was entirely prewired by Kevin, and his exercise of that pre-wire is fully successful. The fact that he does not call this, also, his 'purpose' is really more of a terminology thing. "White Gold. You know ... my other purpose."

[ScrapOSamadhi]

Ok, we seem to be going around and around here. One of the things I love about SRD's work is its layers of subelty and going back to it agin and again I always find something new - a new way of interpreting or looking at things. This group is particularly good for that as well.

I have been looking at the Krill's behavior in the stories some more. It very much responds to Wild Magic (perhaps it became linked when Covenant stabbed it into the table). Wild Magic is good at unlocking artifacts (e.g. Staff of Law) - and burning them to ash too for that matter . However, when Sundar used it to kill Hile Troy to sever the Law of Life the Wild Magic wasn't in use, nor was it when Loric used it. If we discount Covenant's uses of the Krill (and Morham's when he fought the Giant Raver because it said it was "overflowing with echos of wild magic") the surrounding theme/principle seems to be NEED (particularly desparate need fostered by emotion). That in itself isn't very special, however in both Sundar and Morham's case neither cared if they lived or died as long as their purpose was accomplished (in Sundar's case killing Hile Troy as he didn't know what the side effect would be). I think the key Amok was waiting on was evidence (signalled by the Krill) of the individual's possessing the Krill being able to manage themselves when confronted with this type of need. Wild Magic is very similar, as Covenant realized in Foul's Creche in PTP ("bone and blood it arose from his passion"). Wild Magic was also called "the fire of his need" in TWL when he healed himself after being translated from the real world. It requires the same BALANCE of control the Krill needs. It also makes a perfect test for someone before giving them access to the Earthblood.

I think it is in that respect that White Gold (and Wild Magic - which destroys peace) shows the wisdom of Amok's condition. He did say the conditions of his life were not met (that the Lords awaken the Krill on their own). However an ur-Lord did awaken it, just not in the way Kevin intended. It sounded like Kevin gave Amok at least some lattitude as Amok said he travelled the land and saw the peril and as he saw the the need chose to appear at Revelwood. This I don't think he was a 100% blind automoton.

As for viles vs. urviles beind silenced by the Krill, it was a direct quote that Elena said ur-viles. Maybe this is one slight inconsistency between the first and final chronicles.

[covenantparadox]

Brilliant and scholarly ScrapOSamahadi. I hope you don't stay away so long this time.

Peace

[Spring]

Regarding Amok, it is quite possible that he is only needed once, and all time after that you can use the PoC as many times as you want. But of course, that will probably never be used again.

[matrixman]

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