Amok and the Power of Command

[Nerdanel]

I think regardless of whether Kevin had intended his Seventh Ward to be one-time-only or not, we definitely still have a theoretical access to EarthBlood (I hate, hate, hate that capitalization). Elena's breaking of the Law of Death made Kevin himself and through him all of his knowledge available again... to anyone who could command him! Breaking through any potential intervening stone or rubble is just a matter of brute effort.

[Krilly]

Here's something to think about...

Amok mentions traveling all over the world, including places visited in The One Tree. It's possible his actions and appearance in other locations might set us up for something in the future books. (*cough* Elohim *cough*)

[The Somberlain]

I think regardless of whether Kevin had intended his Seventh Ward to be one-time-only or not, we definitely still have a theoretical access to EarthBlood (I hate, hate, hate that capitalization). Elena's breaking of the Law of Death made Kevin himself and through him all of his knowledge available again... to anyone who could command him! Breaking through any potential intervening stone or rubble is just a matter of brute effort.

And who do we know that can break through even the strongest stone?

[drew]

[dlbpharmd]

I think regardless of whether Kevin had intended his Seventh Ward to be one-time-only or not, we definitely still have a theoretical access to EarthBlood (I hate, hate, hate that capitalization). Elena's breaking of the Law of Death made Kevin himself and through him all of his knowledge available again... to anyone who could command him! Breaking through any potential intervening stone or rubble is just a matter of brute effort.

And who do we know that can break through even the strongest stone?

Interesting....

[wayfriend]

I think it is in that respect that White Gold (and Wild Magic - which destroys peace) shows the wisdom of Amok's condition. He did say the conditions of his life were not met (that the Lords awaken the Krill on their own). However an ur-Lord did awaken it, just not in the way Kevin intended. It sounded like Kevin gave Amok at least some lattitude as Amok said he travelled the land and saw the peril and as he saw the the need chose to appear at Revelwood. This I don't think he was a 100% blind automoton.

The question, then, is this: was the white gold accounted for by Kevin when creating Amok? Or did Amok have a certain amount of lattitude, and the circumstances during the Illearth War were merely fortunate enough to fall within their ambit?

I believe that, again, Amok answers this directly. "Are you changed?" "I am who I am. I respect the white gold, but I am unchanged." Amok remains as compelled by Kevin's design as ever.

[ScrapOSamadhi]

You gave Amok's quote, but I could interpret your use of it toward either of the questions you posed.

I never meant to claim that Amok wasn't compelled by Kevin to fully adhere to his design. I was speculating that the design might include some contingencies. Or, Amok was free to do as he liked as long as he could truly justify it as following Kevin's instructions (he did claim if he broke any of the rules - e.g. giving the name of the power - that he would cease to exist).

[IrrationalSanity]

There was probably a technicality. Amok was invoked by the activation of the Krill, as designed. He left when he discovered the Lords did not have the 6th Ward. He came back when he determined that they still had the potential to determine his true nature, which (along with Krill activation) was probably the ultimate determinant of whether he could reveal his knowledge. Besides, Morham discovered his own ability to ignite the Krill shortly thereafter.

[Avatar]

He remains compelled by Kevin's design, but I think that he exhibits a measure of "free will" if you like, as well.

He travelled the Land (Earth?) determining whether his purpose could be legitimately need by the Lords. He decided that it could be.

He couldn't violate his programming, but he must have had some discretion in terms of making it available.

--A

[Caer Bombadil]

I think it's no more complicated than this: Amok was "programmed" to appear when the krill was fully activated. He was "programmed" to grant access to the EarthBlood (and explain its powers and use) to one who named it rightly. The conditions were met, Kevin's "interlocks", if you will, were satisfied, Amok performed as he was designed. In that sense, he was an automatic mechanism.

It was not Amok's place to judge either the validity of the krill's activation, nor the manner in which the "password" was learned, still less the wisdom of Elena's intended use of the Power of Command (which IIRC she didn't reveal to him in any event.)

Maybe he had the discretion to refuse to appear if the krill was activated abnormally, but I think this put him in an ambiguous position for which he had no guidance of any kind. His purpose was to lead the seeker to the EarthBlood; IMO his primary motivation, given that the necessary conditions were satisfied (albeit in a manner Kevin did not anticipate), was to fulfill that purpose. Kevin did not design Amok to interpose his judgement over that of the person who possessed the password. Ergo, IMO any discretion Amok seemed to possess would tend to be heavily biased in favor of going forward with his purpose. He IMO would probably have eventually rationalized doing so no matter what he observed.

IMO this is another illustration of Kevin's fatal shortcomings. He apparently assumed that the krill would be activated only when the Sixth Ward was mastered. He assumed that only one who mastered the Sixth Ward could name the Power of Command. Therefore he felt confident in programming Amok as simply as he did, with no additional qualifiers. He did not count on being trumped and bypassed by the ultimate "wild card", the white gold.

[Avatar]

I'm not sure that he didn't judge the "validity" of the Krill's activation though, hence his remarks to TC about fearing that he'd erred, and that TC's (WM) presence had convinced him otherwise.

The conditions had to be fulfilled, but he made a choice regarding the validity of that fulfillment.

--A

[The Somberlain]

On top of that, he disappeared on learning that they'd only gained two Wards and mastered none, and then returned after "travelling the land and seeing the danger" (not an exact quote). Which means that he arrived because of the krill's activation, but then had to decide whether it was an appropriate method of activation.

[wayfriend]

It was not Amok's place to judge either the validity of the krill's activation.

And yet, he appeared when the krill was activated, but then he departed when he learned that the 6th Ward had not been penetrated. So he did judge the validity of the krill's activation. He then re-judged it at a later time, and returned.

You gave Amok's quote, but I could interpret your use of it toward either of the questions you posed.

Yes, that's true. It's my interpretation.

Consider it this way. What motivated Amok to return and fulfill his function? What did he see that measured up to his internal standards?

Did he change his mind because he saw Foul's armies, or somehow measured the dire might of Foul's plans? This doesn't ring true to me. Amok was created to protect the Lords against the consequences of unearned power. Such a situation increases the demand for such power, but it does not justify it's use. In fact, it makes it more likely that unearned power would be sought after.

Did he change his mind because he saw the hopelessness of the Lords position as defenders of the Land? Again, this doesn't ring true. The Wards were not designed to give the Lords power, they were designed to reveal it slowly, not out of need, but out of matched capacity. Granting power in need is exactly the opposite of what the Wards were for.

In my mind, what he saw was that wild magic was in the Land. Wild magic woke the krill. The prophesies attributed to wild magic meant that not only the Land's defenders, but the very Earth, was in jeopardy. Wild magic means Oaths are out the window, Peace is soon to be destroyed, sanity will be replaced with Madness. All things are possible, all things are up for grabs. If wild magic is in the Land, Foul would be after it!

This must have been the caveat that Kevin placed on the Seventh Ward. Kevin knew of wild magic. Whatever Amok knew of it, he had to learn it from Kevin.

This is all of the same metal as naming Covenant ur-Lord. Of forgiving him whatever he does. He has the wild magic, all things are in service to him, he is an exception to everything.

Wild magic had to be permitted as an alternate key to the Seventh Ward from the very beginning. It could not have been a matter of Amok's discretion, IMO.

[Avatar]

Hmm, good post WayFriend. But what about the fact that he appeared the first time in the very presence of white gold, and yet still, fearing his error, in the knowledge of white gold having awakened the Krill, abandoned the Lords.

If Kevin had built in such a caveat, that should there be WG anywhere, he was to fulfil his purpose, wouldn't he have done so immediately?

--A

[KAY1]

I believe High Lord Elena did ask Amok what had prompted his return and he said something along the lines of 'I travelled the Land and saw the Land's need, therefore I returned. In this way my maker made me well'

Probably loads of errord til I check the book but it was something along those lines.

Also when they stood on Rivenrock trying to find the name of the Power, I believe Covenant or Elena did also say something about Amok being flexible as they had learned from his return at Revelwood.

[IrrationalSanity]

Let us not forget "Those who know me have no need of my name." Even when he was cooperative, Amok wasn't exactly forthcoming. He required specific triggers to enable him to disclose his lore.

1. The Krill activation to allow him to appear
2. The "What are you" question to disclose his nature
3. To return, he determined that between them they did indeed possess the knowledge ("lore") to discover what he guarded (remember, a "ward" in this sense is a protector) The new Lords' oath-of-peace-influenced lore may not have been identical to Kevin's, but it was clearly powerful in its own way.
4. Finally, he couldn't take them past a certain point without them naming the power. Again, this was a collective effort, with the Lords understanding that the knowledge must be available to them, otherwise Amok woudn't have taken them as far as he did, Covenant understanding where the knowledge must lie, and of course the actual revelation of the knowledge itself.

[IrrationalSanity]

Hmm... This gives me a random thought... Could it be? That's almost frightening...

Spoiler

What if the Bloodguard (or at least the Haruchai) were/are the 6th Ward?

That could explain the Masters' attitude toward wielding Earthpower.

[Avatar]

Don't think so...

...Runes Spoiler...

Spoiler

The masters are clear about their reasoning in their dislike of Earth Power, and the haruchai are not Lore Wise, let alone creatures of lore. The wards are the lore of Kevin

--A

[KAY1]

All these posts with spoilers, where do I actually go to see the entire post? I'm sure it is simple but, well, I like to complicate things!

[Avatar]

You just highlight the blacked-out portion with your cursor. It'll makke the text below visible.

Runes spoilers though, be warned.

--A