Was Covenant older than The Land?

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 2:58 am

Oh, don't pay any attention to her, Kinslaughterer. I think that's what passes for Forestal humor. Get it? How could sap be Berek?

Post by **Skyweir** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 3:22 am

you're all wrong

F&F wrote:I'm thinking that Covenant's subconscious saw the danger he was in, and came up with the Land as a way of getting him back to where he could survive

so are you suggesting that Covenants subconscious created this world as some form of personally therapy? or that all lepers or sick people create fantasy worlds to deal with their irreversible illnesses?

this level of escapism .. borders on psychosis ..

and the Land continues to exist presumably even though TC doesnt exist in our world any longer .. that to me is the most compelling arguement in favour of the Land really existing.

and if this creation/imaginary world .. is all just a part of some pychotic need of TC .. to regain some level of 'mental health' LOL

are LA Joan and Roger and the townsfolk including Berensford all part of TC's dream state?? is he not dead in his 'real' world .. but simply catatonic?? .. and still in a dream state??

thats the only way a 'dream hypothesis' can hold water imho ..

and sure of all men in existence .. of all of them TC is most definately one who would be 'in need of a fantasy' .. but this doesnt necessarily imply that the Land is merely that ... a figment of TC's need for escape from his real life ..

I acknowledge that TC of all people would have been drawn to escapist behaviour .. yet he fought all semblances of that .. to keep himself grounded in reality.

imho .. TC was grounded in reality .. and it took him to yet another reality .. which at first he didnt accept .. but later came to accept this world .. as real ..

There is too much that argues against the Land being real . and as you said F&F Linden is one of those things .. unless she also is not real .. then we can not rely on anything as being real ..

it all becomes unreality ..

LA from her perspective narrated a part of the chronicles .. independant of TC .. and on her return to our world .. after her experience in the Land .. she bore TC's ring .. and at no time in our world had TC given her physically this ring .. and there is no evidence whatsoever to infer that she stole it from his cold dead ring finger .. infront of
Berensford to boot ..

you guys are in dire need of acceptance therapy

Post by **Kinslaughterer** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 3:28 am

To tell you the truth I was trying not to get it. I wish I could create my own dream world. I think I'd make myself a little taller.

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 3:31 am

Sky, you're forgetting the part about Covenant being a telepath. That's why he's able to make his therapeutic fantasy work, unlike the other lepers and sick people. And that's why LA, Joan, and anybody else, are able to be participants.

OK, I'm looking for a better explanation for how LA and others can be involved.

But I'm also still looking for anyone to tell me how this guy from one reality turns out to be the keystone to this other reality!

Post by **danlo** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:11 am

So this is all an exercise in futility since the Doctors (if u wish 2 believe them) told Covenant that any such indulgence in fantasy would kill him...he dreamed all this in the leprosarium ( both "supposedly" real and unreal events) in an expanse of 3 weeks and died in a sterile white cell...Oh I HATE that ending! How could u fools lead me 2 such a summation!!

God I thought I enjoyed these books, I kno parts r really depressing but now I'm really depressed. But that doesn't matter and u don't matter cause y'all never were real 2 begin with so....I'm just dreaming I'm on the Web...(hellfire! hellfire! hellfire!...)

Post by **Skyweir** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:12 am

Fist and Faith wrote:Sky, you're forgetting the part about Covenant being a telepath. That's why he's able to make his therapeutic fantasy work, unlike the other lepers and sick people. And that's why LA, Joan, and anybody else, are able to be participants.

LOL .. I wasnt forgetting it .. I have not seen sufficient support for TC being a 'telepath'!!

LOL

.. and how exactly does this theory of yours work now Fisty ol' man?? and just how does it encorporate all the other characters in TC's dreamstate?

OK, I'm looking for a better explanation for how LA and others can be involved. But I'm also still looking for anyone to tell me how this guy from one reality turns out to be the keystone to this other reality!

White gold is the keystone to the AoT .. of all those to be chosen by the Creator in our world .. TC was made of the right stuff - and incidentally also wore a white gold ring .. I do not believe TC IS THE KEYSTONE per se .. unless the current keystone was destroyed .. and i dont think it has been unless i forgot it

but TC being wild magic .. whatever that truly means i still dont know .. could be the keystone of the AoT ..

Post by **danlo** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:16 am

I believe I'm reading Sky's post but that can't b tru...it's just a fig newton of a paraniod overtaxed imagination!

So I can only say "I posted b4 u did nanni nanni nanni!" (**loses mind al2gether...**)

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 5:04 am

Skyweir wrote:LOL .. I wasnt forgetting it .. I have not seen sufficient support for TC being a 'telepath'!! LOL

Oh? Suddenly you need support before you'll believe in something? ROFL!!

pththththth

So let me see if we can get a good theory of this whole wild magic idea. The Creator made the Arch of Time, so that his creation would have a place to exist. And so that the Arch could resist chaos, he created wild magic and made it the keystone. And white gold is the tool that lets one access the wild magic. (Which, now that I think about it, raises the question of why the Creator thought anybody should have access to the wild magic.)

I assume we're all in agreement so far? (Though we're not quite in the correct thread, are we?

) Anybody wanna continue with a couple of things that we will all likely agree on?

Post by **Worm of Despite** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 5:13 am

Truth is, this entire thread was a masked attempt at stealing the Illearth Stone from F&F. Easy there, man! You don't like my sig and I don't like yers! Neener-neener-neener! BUT, I'll gladly change mine if you give me the Illearth Stone!

Either that or Skyweir gives me the Sunbane back!!

Post by **Skyweir** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 5:20 am

FIRST!!

*shocked that danlo squeezed that post in before mine!!!!* how'd that happen!!

lol ..

SECOND!! your both really really silly .. and Fist that last post said absolutely nothing that is able to advance this arguement

.. so you'r fired!!!

LOL

well never mind any of that ..

.. and your point is?????

none of this suggests that TC is the keystone

.. and if he is .. why is he? .. and has he always been so? .. and if so .. what did the Land do prior to TC's presence/arrival? without its alleged ... 'keystone'??

just face it .. THE LAND IS REAL ..

all cool and amazingly intelligent and good looking folk know it .. why dont you???

*geez thats a loaded question if i ever heard one*

now i have someone coming from Japan tomorrow to visit me .. so i wont be around much .. unless i get really sick of my visitor .. and need a fantasy world to escape to ..

Post by **Kinslaughterer** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 5:42 am

I figured I could settle this by finding TC or LA so I picked up the ole phone book but didn't find a listing. I did however find a one Haws Troy of Harpers Ferry, WV. I wonder if its a relative or an alias? I suppose I'll have to call. I'll at least ask him if the Land is real.

Post by **Skyweir** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 5:46 am

good job kins!!

the most sensible suggestion yet LOL .. or not .. *shrugs*

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 11:10 am

Skyweir wrote:FIRST!! *shocked that danlo squeezed that post in before mine!!!!* how'd that happen!! lol ..

It always amazes me when that happens! Especially when you don't see them listed at "Servants of the Land browsing this forum:"

Skyweir wrote:none of this suggests that TC is the keystone ..

No, I was trying to figure out what we all agree on first. But if Covenant is the wild magic, as seems to be the case - and wild magic is the keystone, as the legends say, and which would explain why it is the only thing that can destroy the Arch - then Covenant is the keystone.

As for support that Covenant is the wild magic:
1) There's Mhoram's

Spoiler

"You are the white gold."

2) The fact that

Spoiler

Covenant died so he could get between Foul and the Arch. And when he did that, he said, "And Mhoram told me to 'Remember the paradox of white gold.' But for a long time I didn't understand. I'm the paradox. You can't take the wild magic away from me." Wild magic is the paradox - Covenant is the paradox.

3) The fact that Covenant had to give the ring freely for the other being to be able to call up the wild magic with it. You couldn't just steal it, kill him and take it, or anything like that. At least Foul and the Kemper, with all their abilities and knowledge, thought so.

Skyweir wrote:and if he is .. why is he? .. and has he always been so? .. and if so .. what did the Land do prior to TC's presence/arrival? without its alleged ... 'keystone'??

-Because he is dreaming the whole thing up, and put himself into the position of being the only possible means of saving the Land.
-Yes
-Nothing, since it did not exist until he invented it.

Skyweir wrote:just face it .. THE LAND IS REAL ..

all cool and amazingly intelligent and good looking folk know it .. why dont you???

*geez thats a loaded question if i ever heard one*

I was gonna say that you answered your own question!!! LOL!!

And Foul, we no longer have the Stone. We found a better solution to guarding it. Go try to convince the e-Creator that you should be trusted with it.

KaosArcana · Post by **KaosArcana** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 12:19 pm

Fist and Faith:

3) The fact that Covenant had to give the ring freely for the other being to be able to call up the wild magic with it. You couldn't just steal it, kill him and take it, or anything like that. At least Foul and the Kemper, with all their abilities and knowledge, thought so.

Except it WAS stolen from him at one point.

Spoiler
"Elena Foul-wife," -- he uttered the name with horror-- "now holds
the white gold. She is more the master's servant than any Raver.
In the hands of turiya or moksha, that power would
breed rebellion. With wild magic, any Raver would throw down the
master if eh could, and take a new seat in the thronehall of Ridjeck
Thome. But Elena will not rebel. She will not use the wild magic to
free herself. She has been commanded from the dead, and her
service is pure!"

Spoiler

Covenant did not give the ring to Elena. It was taken from him
when he was unconscious, and yet Triock says that not just
Covenant's daughter could wield the power-- if delivered into
the hands of a Raver, he too could use that force.

And while it was in the hands of the enemy, its possession was
reflected in the krill.

Spoiler
But a spasm of misery around her eyes cut him off. He looked down,
made himself look at the krill.

Deep in its gem, he saw faint glimmerings of emerald.

Without a word, Amatin turned and left him alone with the knowledge
that Covenant's ring had fallen into the power of the Despiser.

Post by **Samadhi Foul** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 2:09 pm

Kinslaughterer wrote:I figured I could settle this by finding TC or LA so I picked up the ole phone book but didn't find a listing. I did however find a one Haws Troy of Harpers Ferry, WV. I wonder if its a relative or an alias? I suppose I'll have to call. I'll at least ask him if the Land is real.

Well, there's a Hile Troy in my town, and a Lindin Avrey in my town.

Do you think that the characters are gathering here, and that perhaps there'll be some sort of dimension-swaping going on in about 10 years here?

Oh, and while you're at it, ask him if his fridge is still running.

Oh, and about the point of the thread, I have nothing to say in the matter.

Post by **[Syl]** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 7:24 pm

A) The Land is not real*, and Earth** is real.

B) The Land is real, and Earth is real.

C) The Land is not real, and the Earth is not real.

You guys can argue A and B all you want, but I go with C. The truth is, both perceived realities are products of a lucid dream on TC's part. The real TC is an old man in an ochre robe with bad breath who stands in front of the courthouse begging, probably a released mental patient with severe schitzophrenia and megalomania.

*Being or occurring in fact or actuality; having verifiable existence: real objects; a real illness.
True and actual; not imaginary, alleged, or ideal

**For these purposes, the original planet in the original dimension of the title character's birth

Post by **birdandbear** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 7:52 pm

Caer Sylvanus wrote: The real TC is an old man in an ochre robe with bad breath who stands in front of the courthouse begging, probably a released mental patient with severe schitzophrenia and megalomania.

Post by **Worm of Despite** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 8:11 pm

birdandbear wrote:
Caer Sylvanus wrote: The real TC is an old man in an ochre robe with bad breath who stands in front of the courthouse begging, probably a released mental patient with severe schitzophrenia and megalomania.

I believe you! I mean, honestly--really! *Connects the pieces* YES, that's it! Donaldson, you sly fox! You slippery salamander!

Post by **Han-shan** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 9:49 pm

Thank you, KaosArcana! I didn't remember the emerald glimmerings part at all!! Wow! That's amazing!! (And my apologies for having doubted you about it. I should have known better.)

However, as I said in that last post in Dissecting before danlo yelled at us:

Spoiler

In his dreams! Elena did not invoke the wild magic. She was planning to. Or, I would say, hoping to. But before she actually made the attempt, she was distracted, and then lost the ring and the Staff was destroyed. I do not believe she would have gotten a spark from it. I think Foul was using her to test the theory. If it worked, if it was proven that the wild magic could be invoked without the white gold having been freely given, he could have simply told her to give him the ring. If it didn't work, then Elena might have been harmed - even obliterated beyond the possibility of being summoned from the dead again - but Foul would have been safe. If Foul thought he was able to use the ring, and break the Arch of Time, do you think he would have had Elena playing around with the Colossus?? He sure didn't waste time with such things when Covenant finally gave it to him in WGW.

The Ravers are another matter. Like LA, they could possess Covenant - Make his will their will - Make him use the wild magic the way the want him to. (Assuming they are not, for some reason that I can't remember, unable to possess him.)

The truth is, I do not think it is possible to figure it out without inconsistencies. The reason that I'd like to believe for that is that it is all part of the paradox of the wild magic.

KaosArcana · Post by **KaosArcana** » Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:38 pm

Han-shan:

Spoiler

In his dreams! Elena did not invoke the wild magic. She was planning to. Or, I would say, hoping to. But before she actually made the attempt, she was distracted, and then lost the ring and the Staff was destroyed. I do not believe she would have gotten a spark from it. I think Foul was using her to test the theory. If it worked, if it was proven that the wild magic could be invoked without the white gold having been freely given, he could have simply told her to give him the ring. If it didn't work, then Elena might have been harmed - even obliterated beyond the possibility of being summoned from the dead again - but Foul would have been safe. If Foul thought he was able to use the ring, and break the Arch of Time, do you think he would have had Elena playing around with the Colossus?? He sure didn't waste time with such things when Covenant finally gave it to him in WGW.

Spoiler

I think that Foul may have been siccing Elena on the
Colossus as a test of her ability to wield the white gold. If she
had been able to tap into the magic, then he could have used
her to shatter the Arch.

I had another post on this subject, but it got lost when the
Ritual of Desecration was enacted on the Forum the other
day.

[/spoiler]

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

Was Covenant older than The Land?