Elena's insanity or freedom in PTP

[Borillar]

In the GI, SRD frequently refers to the Elena from PTP as "insane". I've thought this an unusual description, since from my perspective she's no more "insane" than a zombie or slave, i.e. someone utterly lacking free will in their actions. Yet we have some suggestion that she does have some choice in the matter:

She is more the master's servant than any Raver. In the hands of turiya or moshka, that power would breed rebellion. With wild magic, any Raver would throw down the master if he could, and take a new seat in the thronehall of Ridjeck Thome. But Elena will not rebel. She will not use the wild magic to free herself. She has been commanded from the dead, and her service is pure!

What do people make of all this?

[Xar]

That since the Law of Life had not been broken yet, the Dead would be helpless spectators unless explicitly commanded through the use of powers like the EarthBlood and the Illearth Stone... in these cases, the Dead would be unable to rebel or act in a manner contrary to the wishes of those who would command them.

In a way, dead Elena, once summoned by Foul, is much like a puppet, or rather, an automaton... she is implanted with a set of commands ("obey me", "destroy the Land to the best of your capabilities", "seize White Gold and give it to me", and so on) and she has no choice but to obey. We have hints, through Covenant's POV when he looks into her eyes, that Elena's consciousness exists and is aware of what she is forced to do, but it is helpless, much like a passenger riding in her own head. Very similar, in fact, to the way Linden feels when the Raver possesses her, except that in Elena's case, there is no actual possession, but rather a compulsion through the use of the Illearth Stone. A compulsion which forces most of her to obey, but which cannot suppress that small part of her which represents Elena's awareness, love of the Land, and all that she stood for when she was alive.

[Nerdanel]

I think if Lord Foul tells Elena to do X, she MUST do X, but she has some free will in HOW she tackles X. If she is insane, the HOW may not be a sensible one even though she is still obeying Lord Foul to the letter.

At the time we are talking about Elena has been dead for seven years, which is time enough to get to know Lord Foul really well. This must not have been good for Elena's mental health, which wasn't 100% stable in the first place either. I think it likely that poor Elena was raped by Foul for example. :(

[Borillar]

Just to respond to Xar's post, Triock does not say "Elena cannot rebel"; he says "Elena will not rebel". This is what got me thinking that she was not entirely a prisoner to the instructions she had been given somehow.

[Xar]

Well, even though Triock learned some Lore, I doubt he was knowledgeable enough to know the powers and limitations of the Illearth Stone when raising the Dead... or even to know she was controlled through the power of the Illearth Stone in the first place. To Triock, she could have simply been willingly serving Foul, and even the emerald aura could have been simply a mark of her Dead status.

After all, even after the Law of Life is broken, we are told in WGW that the Dead can still be commanded by whoever recognizes their nature - thus Findail is capable of banishing Covenant after Foul's defeat. It stands to reason that if this power over the dead exists - and Covenant tells Linden Foul could exercise it - how much more powerful and compelling would it have been with the Illearth Stone in his possession?

[wayfriend]

In the GI, SRD frequently refers to the Elena from PTP as "insane". I've thought this an unusual description, since from my perspective she's no more "insane" than a zombie or slave, i.e. someone utterly lacking free will in their actions.

Elena's insanity, according to SRD in the GI, predates her death and enslavement by Foul. She was born that way, if anything. And it was culminated when she summoned Kevin.

During the nine years of her dead enslavement to Foul, she probably went from bad to worse. She was, as had been said, a slave. But she probably had a small amount of freedom as well. (She was not, like Amok, a made thing.) Her insanity could find expression, while she still kept to Foul's instructions.

SRD says that Elena's insanity caused her to try to take the ring from Covenant, which in fact violated Foul's plans. I'd like to think that Elena was striving to defeat Foul even as her insanity led her (again) to overlook the consequences of her actions through too much focus on the goal.

I think it likely that poor Elena was raped by Foul for example.

I think that helping Foul destroy the Land surpassed any possible rape.

[CovenantJr]

Just to respond to Xar's post, Triock does not say "Elena cannot rebel"; he says "Elena will not rebel". This is what got me thinking that she was not entirely a prisoner to the instructions she had been given somehow.

True, but I take the "will not" as "she's not going to" rather than "she chooses not to".

I think it likely that poor Elena was raped by Foul for example.

I'm inclined to believe this idea involves attributing human qualities to Foul that he doesn't possess. And I don't mean physically, though possibly that too. I think Foul can do much worse, even more fundamental, things than rape, and would therefore have no motive to rape Elena or anyone else.

[dlbpharmd]

During the nine years of her dead enslavement to Foul,

Seven years.

(Hey - what's a message board for, if we can't nit pick just a little?)

[duchess of malfi]

I'm sure that Nerdanel is quite right about the rape, though it was probably mental or emotional rather than physical, given the circumstances. Elena is referred to as Elena Foul-wife in TPTP.

[KAY1]

I agree that Elena was insane before she was ever commanded from the Dead, but then the trauma of being brought back to life only to serve under the being you hate more than anything would be enough to send anyone over the edge!

[Pitchbrew]

elena is in the apotheosis of her desecration, she does not see a way out and therefore will not rebel, she has commanded kevin against foul and he lost so she is convinced that no power can challenge him, because her strongest hope in life was false. As she died from that hope it condemned her to this fate, at least in her own mind, and as we know that sometimes is more compelling than the truth....for instance look at trell in ptp, he has the ability to refrain from his desecration but chooses not to, even though it is completely in his power. That is the power of despite. You come to destroy what you love

[wayfriend]

That is the power of despite. You come to destroy what you love

I agree. Elena was consumed and mastered by despite. This is why she is called Foul's Wife.

It still leaves open the perplexing question of her attempt to take the ring from Covenant. There's enough information in the GI to believe that even the author is a bit confused on the point.

We know that Foul did not intend it. And we know it is the result of insanity. But how so?

The first time(s) I read this part, I didn't notice the issue. Then, when I did, I assumed that Elena was merely making a mistake. Now I wonder ... if her insanity led her to cross purposes with Foul, may it have been a misguided attempt to destroy Foul by weilding the white gold herself? Was she trying to free herself with wild magic?

What appeals to me is that this may be a kind of action she could take in her condition, since it is so closely aligned with Foul's commands that it might be possible to achieve. And her character has been established as someone who doesn't count the cost of achieving her ambition.

[Borillar]

It still leaves open the perplexing question of her attempt to take the ring from Covenant. There's enough information in the GI to believe that even the author is a bit confused on the point.

We know that Foul did not intend it. And we know it is the result of insanity. But how so?

Are you talking about Elena's possession of the ring in PTP? If so, why do you think Foul didn't intend it? Aside from the facts that attacking the Colossus of the Fall is certainly something Foul would approve of and that she's clearly under the domination of the Illearth Stone when she acts, SRD suggests that Elena herself isn't really "present" at the scene making choices:

A moment passed before his anguish permitted him to see her clearly, and while he groveled without comprehension, she shone defiantly before him like a soul of purest emerald. But slowly he recovered his vision. Like a reborn phoenix, she flourished in green loveliness. Yet in some way she reminded him of the specter of Kevin Landwaster -- a spirit dredged out of its uneasy grave by commands of irrefusable cruelty. Her expression was as placid as power could make it; she radiated triumph and decay. But her eyes were completely lightless, dark. It was as if the strange bifurcation, the dualness, of her sight had gone completely to its other pole, away from the tangible things around her. She seemed not to see where or who she was, what she did; her gaze was focused elsewhere, on the secret which compelled her.

Quotes like this one are why I found myself a bit puzzled by SRD's characterization of Elena as "insane". I understand, as was pointed out, that she was quite insane by the end of TIW, but in this incarnation, she appears to have no choice in her actions. Even though she's often described in the scene as "raging" or having her voice "shake with anger" we again are told (after the Colossus destroys Lal and Whane) of the contrast between her spirit to her actions:

Her gaze was focused on him as if he were food for the rankest hujnger of her ill soul. Through it, he seemed to see the Despiser slavering in triumph and scorn. And yet her eyes showed something else as well. Triock had told the truth about her. Behind the savagery of her glare, he felt the last unconquerable core of her sobbing with revulsion.

[wayfriend]

Are you talking about Elena's possession of the ring in PTP? If so, why do you think Foul didn't intend it?

Because Foul required Covenant to give the ring. If it could simply be taken, the story would have ended very quickly, right?

In better words:

Doc: Mr. Donaldson,

In TPTP Elena "takes" Covenant's ring while he is unconscious. Subsequently in TOT Kasreyn states that the reason he does not "rip the ring" from Covenant's finger is that a power given is different from a power taken. There are other times throughout The Chronicles where power or lore must be earned or learned before it can be used. In WGW Lord Foul himself must wait till Covenant chooses to give him the ring.

Why then did Elena feel that she could wield the ring after she had "taken" it from Covenant?

For that matter, what would it matter? Both Elena and Kasreyn are "Lore-wise", how would the act of "giving" as opposed to "taking" effect there actions.

By the end of TPTP, Elena is fully insane; so what do you expect? She's no longer capable of understanding--or even caring about--"the necessity of freedom."

Why does the difference between "giving" and "taking" matter? Well, quite apart from the obvious moral issues.... Look at it this way: "taking" requires energy, perhaps vast amounts of it. That energy has to come from SOMEwhere, and of course it's going to come from the "taker" (where else would the "taker" get it?). So the more you "take," the less you *are*. Lore-wise beings like Kasreyn and Lord Foul understand that simply snatching Covenant's ring will do them more harm than good--especially when you consider the corollary that "taking" inherently prevents replication of the organic relationship between power and its natural wielder.

(10/12/2005)

If Foul intended Elena to take the ring from Covenant, what could the remainder of the plan be? Did he intend Elena to only borrow the ring long enough to destroy the Colossus?

On the other hand, maybe he 'knew' that if Elena took the ring, Covenant would regain it, and destroy the Staff of Law thereby.

[Borillar]

Because Foul required Covenant to give the ring. If it could simply be taken, the story would have ended very quickly, right?

Not necessarily; it depends on whether Covenant "supports" the actions taken with his ring, whether he gave it or not. This goes back to the question I asked SRD in the GI about how Elena was able to use the ring despite having forcibly taken it from Covenant. Although SRD in the answer you quoted just says "She was insane, so what does it matter?", he previously gave a more detailed answer:

Elena, of course, doesn't actually raise power from the ring, but there are a couple of reasons why she might have been able to do so. (In any case, she isn't bluffing when she threatens the Colossus. She *believes* she can exert wild magic. She has, after all, lost her mind.) Volition is a complex thing: there are unconscious as well as conscious choices. And sometimes the unconscious choices subvert the conscious ones. At that point in his struggle, Covenant must have been feeling a certain amount of "death wish" (why else would he even think about tackling Lord Foul when he believes he has no power?), and his unconscious volition might have enabled Elena to use the ring against him. In addition--on a somewhat more conscious level--Covenant has known for a while that external forces can trigger a response from the ring; and he may have been hoping (volition again) that Elena's use of the Staff would trigger a reaction she didn't expect.

Additionally, even if Foul believed that the ring so removed was powerless, he might still have wanted Elena to take it from Covenant as either a bluff or to increase the pressure on him.

[wayfriend]

I don't disagree with that, Borillar, but I will note that the two GI responses quoted, one by you and one by me, are from different 'eras' in Donaldson's explanations of these questions. He seems to be revising the underlying fantasy physics recently. (There is another thread about this somewhere.)

In this case, his earlier response (10/2004) is that Elena must have had some sort of permission to use the ring, from some sort of death-wish Covenant had.

Later (10/2005, almost a year later), he seems to have flipped on the issue.

Karen Hello! Hope this finds you well.

I have read a couple of the questions submitted re the machinations of various characters in Chronicles and how essential their 'plots' are to the storyline and the outcome.

The answer I came up with to these questions myself before reading some of your own answers was that these needed to be so complex due to the fact that Lord Foul COULDN'T in fact just muscle in and somehow obtain the ring if it fell into other hands etc, because as stated by Lord Mhorham in TPTP, Covenant IS the white gold. This would mean that the ring simply couldnt be found/stolen by someone else as it would not have the same properties/power. Of course I was then confused in the 2nd Chronicles by the fact that Linden Avery appears to be almost some sort of Demi-God in terms of what she can do with her own abilities and Covenant's ring.
If Covenant IS the essence of the wild magic which is unleashed by the white gold, how is it that Linden then becomes the key character with regards to its useage?

Am I just being very dense here in seeing the explanation?

Thanks!

Regards

Karen

I think the point on which I've failed to be clear is that it's a question of *degree*. White gold is the instrument of wild magic. Any passing stranger with a bit of lore and/or sensitivity could get *some* use out of the ring. And the more lore and/or sensitivity that someone-not-Covenant has, the more useful the ring will be. But only the ring's true wielder, someone who has an organic relationship with that specific ring (Covenant, Joan), can access *all* of the power of wild magic. The Elenas and Lindens of the Land can evoke a LOT of power from white gold; but a LOT is a far cry from the near-absolute power required to destroy the Arch of Time.

Lord Foul has no use for a LOT of power: he needs near-absolute power. Hence the somewhat oblique focus of his machinations.

Does that help?

(10/08/2005)

Note that my earlier quote about Elena's insanity and the necessity of freedom is in this same, later time frame.

So the 'recent' view is that, Elena could have weilded much, but not all, of the wild magic, although it would come at some expense to herself. At the same time she would have deprived Foul of his chance to acquire the ring with it's full powers.

Personally, I don't think that the ediface Donaldson is building on is getting particularly stronger...

[dlbpharmd]

Personally, I don't think that the ediface Donaldson is building on is getting particularly stronger...

Agreed.

[Borillar]

I would agree too. I've been feeling for a while that the GI involves a whole lot of post-hoc rationalizations. It's really not too surprising, given that SRD is being subjected to hundreds of fans analyzing every sentence of books he wrote at a time when he hadn't envisioned the Second and Third Chronicles. In the end, it may be that some things are just not explainable or reconcilable, despite his best efforts.

[KAY1]

Woohoo that quote from the recent GI twas meeeeeeeeeeeee!
Guess I added to the confusion huh?

[Avatar]

I agree with Borillar, and not just that, but that such post-hoc rationalisations are inevitable, and a necessary result of the entire GI concept.

In the original writing, the internal consistency would almost certainly never have been an issue. Only the external consistency, (the visible consistency that is), would have mattered.

As he said, the subsequent analysis and discussion created a need for internal consistency which was never built in in the first place.

Amazing that it has hung together so well at all really.

--A