Travel to the Land

[Lu]

Hi all! *waves* Long time Donaldson admirer, first time poster.

One thing I always wondered about was travel to the land, and how it worked. In particular, how could one stay in the Land after being summonned? Troy remains in the Land long after he died in the real world. And at the end of White Gold Wielder, Covenant's body also stays in the Land while Linden is whisked back. Plus the Creator offered to keep Covenant in the Land at the end of The Power That Preserves - but if he can't reach into the Land without breaking the Arch of Time, how could he accomplish that?

Kisses,
Lu

[KAY1]

hey there! I must admit some of these little glitches had me puzzled. Here are my theories.

In the case of Hile Troy, I think it had something to do with what happened when he was summoned ie Atiaran catching the fire that was meant for him. It appears maybe she died at the exact moment of summoning so maybe that messed up the whole 'you return to the real world when your summoner dies' routine. Of course the fact that we never found out what happened to Troy in the real world doesn't help, we don't know if he truly existed and they found his body burned at the bottom of a block of flats or not.

In WGW, I think it was only Covenant's consciousness which remained in the Land. In The One Tree when Linden momentarily returns to the real world she sees both their bodies still there. Perhaps a similar principle wuld have worked in TPTP as I'm sure in the real world, Covenant would have died, while his consciousness lived on in the Land, though how the Creator planned on accomplishing this I don't know.

Just my ramblings, no idea if they make sense or not!

[wayfriend]

The following may be a useful bit of information.

Lord Fool: I recently read the "Second Chronicles", and a question popped into my mind.

I always assumed that the accident by which Hile Troy was transported to the Land did eventually kill him. I can understand his body could've survived for the relatively short time he spend in the land as the Warmark. However, Troy didn't die in the Land until the "White Gold Wielder", after ten years' time in the "real world". I understood that when one dies in the "real world", he also dies in the Land (as happened to Thomas Covenant). Even though Troy as Caer-Cavernal wasn't entirely human, he wasn't Dead (as Covenant in the end). So, how was it possible for Troy's body to keep living for such a long period of time without his mind present?

Oh, by the way: thank you. The "Second Chronicles" were the most satisfying read; the Thomas Covenant saga has really rooted itself in my heart. I'm eagerly looking forward to the Last Chronicles - meanwhile, I've the time to check out your other works as well.

In the most literal sense, death in the "real world" for a character like Hile Troy, or Thomas Covenant, simply means that character can no longer return to his/her "real" life. But of course the implications go much farther (and are explored more fully in "The Last Chronicles"). Literal death in the Land as well is a significant possibility. But neither Troy nor Covenant actually died in the Land: rather they were transformed; became beings of an entirely different kind. In Troy's case, a series of transformations were involved, resulting in a new Forestal. In Covenant's case, the destruction of his mortality freed his spirit to support the Arch of Time (the fact that he retains some form of sentient identity is demonstrated by his ability to speak to Linden during her translation back to her "real" life). In both cases, huge powers were required to cause transformation instead of literal death. So: literal death in the "real world" does not *necessarily* impose extinction in the Land. In the "real world," Troy's body suffered literal death not long after his accident.

(11/21/2004)

[ur-monkey]

One thing I always wondered about was travel to the land, and how it worked. In particular, how could one stay in the Land after being summonned? Troy remains in the Land long after he died in the real world. And at the end of White Gold Wielder, Covenant's body also stays in the Land while Linden is whisked back. Plus the Creator offered to keep Covenant in the Land at the end of The Power That Preserves - but if he can't reach into the Land without breaking the Arch of Time, how could he accomplish that?

Greeting Lu and welcome! I think there's a few things we need to consider here. On the surface, the answer seems quite straightforward - summoning seems only to have been possible with the Staff of Law - and the application of a high level of lore - up until the time when High Lord Elena broke the Law of Death. Drool Rockworm had the Staff, but needed Lord Foul's lore in order to successfully summon Covenant (or simply the White Gold from his point of view). Later, Elena succeeded in summoning him with the aid of the Staff, but apparently only after years of study and research and preparation...and the wisdom gained in the Second Ward. In both these cases, Thomas Covenant only returned to the land after the death of Drool and Elena respectively. The summoning, we would presume from this, seems to be directly linked to the very life of the summoner. Perhaps the summoner (with the aid of the Staff) could have sent Covenant back, were they of a mind - we don't actually know, but I tend to think the Staff wielder probably could.

After the Law of Death was broken, summoning appeared to become much easier - Mhoram managed to summon the ur-lord with his own, lesser staff - and Triock, with his limited lore and the help of Foamfollower's prodigious strength also managed the same feat after 3 days of extreme effort. Again, Covenant remains bound to the land until the time when Foamfollower, as his surviving co-summoner, dies in the destruction of Foul's Creche.

The thing that makes me pause for thought, though, is the summoning of Hile Troy by Atiaran, as you pointed out. Atiaran summoned Troy without the Staff of Law, and with an incomplete training of Kevin's Lore - although it cost her life. When you add this to the fact that we never find out whether Troy existed in our 'real' world (Covenant didn't manage to have his existance confirmed, because he very conveniently worked within a security clearance-protected military logistics department) and so this might explain Atiaran's ability to summon Troy.

Or, we could assume that Troy was 'real'. Perhaps he was easier to summon, not being the White Gold Wielder. Perhaps a summoning was always possible without the Staff of Law before the Law of Death was broken, but only at the cost of the summoner's life. Which would explain why Troy was 'stuck' in the Land...his summoner has died during the summoning, as opposed to after it. A summoner already dead upon Troy's arrival could obviously not die again in order to release him!

Another question around Troy's 'reality' circles around the longevity of his stay in the Land. If he were a real man of our world, injured in a fire and a fall on a military compound, his 3.5 millennia long sojourn in the Land would equate to a 10-year coma back home. Rare, but it does happen. Since we don't know whether Troy was alive or dead in the real world after his summoning - or even whether he ever existed - all we can do is speculate.

In the 2nd Chrons, of course, Foul did not have the strength to summon Covenant without the blood and sacrifice of the religious fanatics in spite of the breaking of the Law of Death and the destruction of the Staff of Law. Why this is, I'm not totally clear about either! Though I assume it is because despite the Sunbane and the time that had passed since his defeat he still wasn't quite up to strength. Or perhaps the destruction of the Staff (as opposed to it just being lost) made summoning next to impossible.

Good question about the Creator's offer to let TC stay in the land at the end of PTP...got me a bit stumped that one! Perhaps it could be explained by the fact that Covenant IS the white gold - he is the paradox of the keystone and, as such, matters relating to him - particularly any decision HE HIMSELF makes about whether or not to stay, will keep the arch intact. Remember, Covenant was chosen by the Creator, but not controlled by Him. Therefore he could overthrow Foul without jeopardising the Arch. From this it suggests that Covenant's choices, though they coincide with the Creator's wishes, can be made without this as a consequence.

[KAY1]

I have a terrible memory for detail as far as this goes, though I suppose the fact I haven't read the 2nd chrons for about 6 years may have something to do with it. Anyway, the point is, I think Covenant did give an explanation for all the faffing about Foul had to do in order to summon Covenant to the Land. It may well have had something to do with the destruction of the Staff of Law and I'm sure it also had to do with free will so Foul had to stage all the elaborate rituals etc in order to 'persuade' Covenant to make the decision.

[ur-monkey]

Blimey, in the time it took me to write that, 2 posts had beaten me to it!

Tsk, I type like a drunken primate...

[dlbpharmd]

Welcome Lu!

[Avatar]

Welcome Lu, and good post Ur-Monkey, I think you covered what I wanted to say about Troy.

--A