What would you cut?

[Avatar]

We all know that, if a movie were ever made, they'd have to...shorten...it right?

Well, what would you cut from it, without disturbing the plot, the story, the concept, the feel, the whole damn point?

I'm not gonna make any suggestions here myself, being, (as I might have mentioned somewhere ) something of a purist, I'll restrict myself to attacking your suggestions instead.

What would you leave out to bring the movie(s) down to acceptable screentime?

--Avatar

[The Somberlain]

Obviously a large part of the two treks (with the Quest and with Atiaran); only really showing the important scenes (the Wraiths, the storm, the encounter with Triock, Soaring Woodhelven (both times), Plains Of Ra, Morinmoss, approach to Mount Thunder).

Perhaps a fair bit of the scenes in Revelstone, with Covenant doing little but pacing around in his room and throwing tapestries about. You could have the first time he goes into the room and sulks and shouts at Bannor, but none after that. Maybe even the whole of the vespers scene could go, plus the part where Covenant can't get to the Close without going all the way down.
In fact, I think Revelstone shouldn't get TOO much screentime in general. Apart from when it first comes into sight. Then audiences will say "We want to see more of the cliff city!" And the studios will say "Okay, okay, here's your budget to make The Illearth War and The Power That Preserves."

Can't think of anything else that could go, though. I don't envy the film makers


Edit: Also, the bit where I just said "plus the part where Covenant can't get to the Close without going all the way down." made me think. IIRC, he has a fairly important conversation with Mhoram along the way, so the scene could basically just be them walking; no fuss about heights (he's done that at Kevin's Watch and Soaring Woodhelven already). Maybe a lot of these long conversations could be held while travelling. I can't think of any specific examples, but there are definitely a few where the characters sit down and have a chat. When they could be going to the next destination and having a chat at the same time.

[I'm Murrin]

I think a lot of the time spent wandering around the catacombs could be cut quite easily.
If we look at the other books as well, perhaps Doriendor Corishev could be replaced with something else, either at Doom's Retreat or outside Garrotting Deep, where Troy could lose his sight.

[Nerdanel]

I haven't done the calculations, but I think we can get in all the major plot points. (Something like Vespers is not a major plot point but rather a vehicle for information that may be provided elsewhere if that part gets cut.) The plot isn't that complex, really. It would be different if we were trying to film the whole first trilogy as one movie.

I think everyone would by necessity end up talking much less and descriptions of scenery can be made to take much less than the usual minute per page. Minor characters like Lord Osondrea need not get properly introduced. It's enough that Osondrea comes across as "some Lord in the Council" since she never gets back into the plot and isn't very important in the first place. Her name may be mentioned, but nobody is expected to remember it.

Harking back to my list of genuinely important characters:
Thomas Covenant
Foamfollower
Lord Mhoram
Bannor
Atiaran
Lena
High Lord Prothall
Lord Foul
Drool Rockworm
+ characters that are going to get important later (Kevin, Trell, Pietten)

Many of those aren't going to be onscreen at the same time, which keeps things simple and moving along.

[wayfriend]

To answer the question, what gets cut, you need to ask the question, which parts of the story do you want to tell?

And you also have to remember that everything is important, but you have to cut something.

For example, the massacre of the Wraiths is probably a prime candidate for being cut. Sorry to say, but it doesn't move Covenant's or Atairan's arc much, and the mendacity of Foul can be demonstrated elsewhere.

Does Foamfollower need to over-exert himself on the Soulsease? Probably the Giant stays, his rescue by the Warward goes.

Possiblythe gathering of the Stowndown to hear the tale of Berek could go. The Berek business could be introduced in another way.

The boots business can be left out without harming the story much. Covevant doesn't need to toss a tapestry out the window. Possibly Vespers could go.

That's LFB, for starters.

[The Somberlain]

To answer the question, what gets cut, you need to ask the question, which parts of the story do you want to tell?

And you also have to remember that everything is important, but you have to cut something.

For example, the massacre of the Wraiths is probably a prime candidate for being cut. Sorry to say, but it doesn't move Covenant's or Atairan's arc much, and the mendacity of Foul can be demonstrated elsewhere.

Does Foamfollower need to over-exert himself on the Soulsease? Probably the Giant stays, his rescue by the Warward goes.

Possiblythe gathering of the Stowndown to hear the tale of Berek could go. The Berek business could be introduced in another way.

The boots business can be left out without harming the story much. Covevant doesn't need to toss a tapestry out the window. Possibly Vespers could go.

That's LFB, for starters.

Except, Atiaran HATES Covenant when she hands him to Foamfollower. And everyone thinks it's the massacre of the Wraiths. I think if they had the bloody moon on the same night (I think they were seperate events in the book), that'd be enough for showing the power of Drool/Foul. The boots isn't really necessary, agreed.

The Stonedown thing is kind of what I was saying earlier; Covenant needn't have to go to particular places to learn what's going on, he could find out these things during other conversations (the Berek information would probably come from Lena at the hurtloam scene).

[High Lord Tolkien]

I'll restrict myself to attacking your suggestions instead.

Are we assuming 1 movie for each book?
Or all 3 wrapped up as one movie.
I'll assume the latter.

The Leproseum (sp?) can be condensed to a half minute of horrifing images.

Drool can be cut entirely.
Make it all Foul from the very beginning.
I don't think having the main bad guy show up until the end works well on film.
There has to be a few images and interactions to guage how the final battle will go in any movie.

I'd cut the rape of Lena because there's no need in my condensed version.
I'd cut the Atairan leading TC to Revelstone.
Then I'd throw the Land's geography out the window and have Foamfollower pick him up right by Mithil Stonedown.
Make the river ride take them past the Plains of Ra and expose us to the Ranyhyn from a distance and also Mt. Thunder and Garroting Deep.
Expose the movie viewer to much of the inhabitants, landmarks and history of Land on this brief river journey.

This actually isn't as offensive to the purists as it might sound.
SRD was more concerned with the story that the accuarcy of a map.
Whereas someone like Tolkien was much concerned with the geography and wrote it as such.

So there. I've given the background of TC and gotten him to Revelstone, introduced the audience to the Land and it's inhabitants all in about 15 minutes. Troy would already be there as the Warmark too!

Now here's were everyone REALLY hates me but I'd keep the movie down to about 2 1/2 hours.
I'd never have TC return to the "real world" until the very end.
The the Illearth War would quickly follow the retrieval of the Staff of Law.
Literally as soon as they call down the FireLions we'd see Lord Foul handling the IllEarth Stone and calling his Ravers to lead his armies.
Upon returning to Revelstone, Amok would be there waiting.
That's right, I'd indroduce and activate the Krill a lot earlier.

Troy's plans are the same and TC follows a now promoted High Lord called Elena to find the Seventh Ward.

But in my condensed version Elena and company get to Damelon's door via Seareach.
It is Elena, TC, Foamfollower, Bannor, Morin (and a few other characters who will die like redshirted Star Trek away members) who defeat the Giant Raver but too late to save the Giants.

Troy and Mhoram discover ontop Kevin's Watch that TWO armies are headed for Revelstone.
Troy follows his Doom's Retreat strategy but then quickly has Mhoram summon the Forestal at *nearby* Garotting Deep.
They manage to save MOST of the Warward at the cost of Troy's service to the Forestal.
The Warward makes it back to Revelstone in time to be besieged by Foul's second Giant Raver led army.

Elena still summons Kevin and as Rivenrock is destroyed in the ensuing battle only TC, Bannor and Foamfollower survive.
The Staff of Law itself is inadvertantly destroyed by TC when Kevin tries to strike him with it after Kevin kills Elena.
They decide to take the battle to Foul himself at Mt Thunder not Foul's Creche.
Foul's Crech would be totally cut.
Bannor leaves them when he senses his people abandoning the Vow. But he does say that he will return the heels of the Staff of Law to the Lords.

Back at Revelstone the Bloodguard abandon their Vow when they see 3 of their members serving the Raver.
I'd still have those clay "Pure One" little dudes though.
Lord Mhoram's Victory would still be there too.

TC defeats Foul and we see Mt Thunder burst into flames in the aftermath.

Credits roll...

(and then my head!)



Remember this is coming from a guy who hatted the LotR movies because they weren't true to the books!!
But if you got to condense it down to 2 1/2 hour then you've got to be brutal.
I think I kept all the elements though.

[The Somberlain]

I certainly agree that your version doesn't need the rape of Lena.


You committed enough rape purely with your proposed summary

[High Lord Tolkien]

I certainly agree that your version doesn't need the rape of Lena.


You committed enough rape purely with your proposed summary

Hahahahahaha..............!

[Nerdanel]

Here's my version of the one-film trilogy:

TC gets summoned to the Land pretty much as usual. Both Drool and Lord Foul have made the cut. Foul gives TC the (abbreviated) message. The rape of Lena is cut because there isn't space to handle its implications and TC just acts like a jerk. Soaring Woodhelven is cut. The Wraiths of Andelain are cut. Foamfollower and all the Giants are totally cut. So are the Ranyhyn. Atiaran will eventually become fast friends with Covenant.

In Revelstone TC gives his warning. The quest for the Staff of Law is cut. Just at that moment, having been advised by Foul, Drool sneaks in through the front door which has been left open and unguarded in the seeming absence of danger. There is a fight and the Staff of Law is regained.

TC is back home. I think the transitions could give some interesting structure to the story.

TC is summoned by High Lord Elena and they go questing for the Seventh Ward while Hile Troy dies as his troops gain a pyrrhic victory at Doom's Retreat. Garroting Deep is cut. It is revealed that Elena was Atiaran's unnamed daughter for whom TC was rude early on but who wouldn't budge from her hero-worship. Elena drinks EarthBlood, summons Kevin's specter, and gets herself killed. TC gets sent back home.

TC goes briefly to a tent revival (oooh, character development!) and overall seems to be losing it and denies a summoning to treat the snakebitten girl. Atiaran and Bannor summon Covenant successfully. Due to passage of time, Atiaran is now an old woman. They go together to kill Lord Foul in Ridjeck Thome. Mount Thunder has been cut from the map as redundant and for being too much like Mount Doom.

Meanwhile High Lord Mhoram tries to resists the armies besieging Revelstone. It is hard since the Bloodguard minus Bannor died at Doom's Retreat.

TC and Atiaran sneak into Ridjeck Thome. They get caught and all hope seems lost, but Lord Mhoram's Victory (in which he kills a Giant, not a Giant-Raver since the Ravers are simplified away into three immortal Giants) provides a critical distraction. TC fights and wins and awakes in the hospital. The end.

-------



I thought it was better to cut sideplots wholesale than to try to keep everything. I figure a movie has only room for one bookful of plot, and that's with all the usual condensation, so I basically had to cut some two thirds of everything to get some sort of coherent whole as the result. Three movies for the first trilogy are SO the format that the series deserves.

I could write a detailed version of what to cut and keep in a three-film version, but I don't want to. For one thing, the things I want to cut most would be the things I have forgotten and the things I remember lean heavily into the direction of the things that should be kept. Besides, it's hard to estimate running time.

[dlbpharmd]

It is too painful to read this thread.....

[matrixman]

Agree with dlb. A one-film trilogy is too awful to even think about. To avoid emotional trauma, I skipped reading HLT's and Nerdanel's summaries.

For example, the massacre of the Wraiths is probably a prime candidate for being cut. Sorry to say, but it doesn't move Covenant's or Atairan's arc much, and the mendacity of Foul can be demonstrated elsewhere.

I accept your rationale, but personally, if I were making the movie, I'm not sure I could ever let go of that scene. For me, the Celebration of Spring/massacre of the Wraiths was one of the most powerful moments in all the Chronicles. Yes, there are other opportunities in LFB to show Foul's mendacity, but I would find the haunting imagery of the massacre hard to resist as a filmmaker. Add the self-sacrifice of the forest animals and the death of the Unfettered One, and I'd be crazy to cut this scene from the film. After all, it's about making the audience feel in its collective gut that "something precious is in danger of being lost." I think this sequence underlines very well for the audience that sense of the beauty of the Land being taken away -- and yes, this virtually right after the rape of Lena in movie time. Both sequences searing in broken loveliness, brutality, and heartbreak. The filmgoers are entranced and reeling, and you've got them in the palm of your hand.

Wayfriend, you can have your "regular" version. The massacre of the Wraiths will live on in the Special Edition in my mind.

Ack. I don't envy being the director of the proverbial Covenant movie. I would end up annoying the hell out of every fan as soon as I cut even one scene.

On the other hand, being the boss of a massive film production sounds like a nice way to spend time.

[Avatar]

Damn, Dlb's right...what monster have I unleashed upon this poor unsuspecting and rarely visited (by me) forum?

The Wraiths?!? No!!

Things were going quite well, at first, I could live with The Somberlains suggestions, and most of WayFriends, (Never the Wraiths though), but the wheels fell off at HLT.

And the worst of it is, I think that, in movie terms, HLT's summation is the best yet. Read it MM, because I think that if this movie ever gets made, we could be looking at a thumbnail sketch of it right there.

I was assuming what I would want: A 3-hour movie for each book. But it's proably not going to happen.

The one-movie trilogy, appaling as even the thought of it is, is probably the most likely scenario, especially because then it gives the chance for the 2nd Chrons in another movie, and the last Chrons in a third.

Other wise you're looking at a minimum of 6 movies, hopefully 10, (Although, is Runes worth a whole movie as far as the industry would be concerned?) and unless the first one is a record breaker, they'll never get made.

Sorry Nerdanel, I think that HLT (who seems to have put a deal of thought into this ) has a better plan...(at least make it 3 1/2 hours man! And include the rape). No flitting back and forth between the Land and the real world, just one unbroken storyline, LFB to TPTP, Quest, to War, to Retaliation.

It's sacrilege, it's butchering, it's an offense to the entire series. It's also workable, and has a good potential for commercial viability.

I tell you this though, if it is ever made along those lines, I won't be watching it. *sigh*

--Avatar

[Akasri]

If you're gonna cut that much, why not just have TC kill Foul while he's on Kevin's Watch and then call it a day?

[Nerdanel]

I stand by my position of flitting back and forth between the "real world" and the Land. Unbelief is one of the main points of the first trilogy and if the whole story minus the beginning and the end happens in the Land there isn't much point to it. I like the idea that while TC is starting to become more heroic and accept the Land, he also might also been seen as becoming more and more crazy from a different perspective, creating some very interesting ambiguity.

For pacing I think the first segment in the Land should be the shortest, followed by half a minute movie time in the "real world" to support the notion that TC was dreaming the whole time. Then we get a longer and more complex segment in the Land with Hile Troy followed by a longer "real world" segment with several scenes so that the option that TC is crazy after all starts to become more plausible. Headgames, man. The next time we get to the Land things have developed very dark and intense from their light and detached beginnings and things reach a gripping climax in the longest segment yet. Then we get to the happy end as per book.

I think it's an issue of whether you want to tell the story of the Land's battle against Lord Foul (incidentally featuring a certain leper from another world) or if you want to tell about Thomas Covenant's journey from cynical depression into light (incidentally featuring an another world). I'm not the kind of person to normally prefer character-based stories over the plot, but I think the latter story view is more interesting, at least in a movie with a limited time. I also like idea-based stories and the TC-centered view has all these questions about the nature of reality and how that relates to morals, among other things.

I liked Brotherhood of the Wolf too, with its plethora of fake endings. I wonder what it would be like if TC was filmed in France (but in English or with a new translation).

[I'm Murrin]

I was assuming what I would want: A 3-hour movie for each book. But it's proably not going to happen.

The one-movie trilogy, appaling as even the thought of it is, is probably the most likely scenario, especially because then it gives the chance for the 2nd Chrons in another movie, and the last Chrons in a third.

I think you shouldn't give up hope yet - the post by Orloff said they intend to do just Lord Foul's Bane before trying to get any further movies done.
The worst scenaroi we will see, I think, is LFB never done, or done very badly. The best, I expect, will be three films covering the first Chronicles. I can't see them doing all six (or ten) books.

[Cail]

MM is spot on. The Celebration is an incredibly powerful point in LFB, probably the best part of the book. Lose that and you lose the depth of Foul's....Foulness.

[Nerdanel]

In fact, I agree. One movie is way too short, but as you may have noticed, I am fond of thought-games and wild speculation as well as have a higher-than-average resistance to squick. Even in a one-film solution I would like to insert the Wraiths somewhere later, even if the original Celebration of Spring gets cut.

Let's see... The Wraiths are doing their Celebration of Midsummer in the conveniently relocated Andelain and watched by Hile Troy. Then the first scouts of Fleshharrower's armies arrive and overrun the Wraiths. (Okay, that sucks.) Or maybe the Wraiths are doing an out-of-place Celebration in the middle of Lord Foul's Winter since there SHOULD be a spring. (That has serious aesthetic problems and fails to capture the true beauty of the Celebration of Spring.)

The problem is, there are far too many important scenes in the trilogy to fit in one movie and have it remain coherent. Some important scenes are just less important than others.

[Avatar]

Unbelief is one of the main points of the first trilogy and if the whole story minus the beginning and the end happens in the Land there isn't much point to it.

Aah, Nerdanel, it may be one of the main points of the books, (and I agree with you) but would it be the main point of a fantasy movie, which rarely wastes much time on existential angst?

And much as I'd like to see Orloff's post become reality Murrin, what they'd like to do, and what they'll be allowed to do may well be two different things.

The problem with the Celebration of Spring is the same Cail. I totally agree that it's one of the most important parts of the book, but we're not going to have a book. The celebration works mainly because we've already spent 100 pages odd learning about the beauty and wonder of the Land. But in a movie, it'll be no more important or meaningful than any other nasty thing evil does to mar beauty.

*sigh*

I'm serious folks, read HLT's post on page 1 again. Don't read it as a Covenant fan, or as somebody knowledgable about the books. Read it as though you were a producer with a budget to spend, and a profit in mind, reading a script outline.

It really could be done like that, and without losing the plot...only the essential bits that have made it so worthwhile to us all.

If the writers are really committed to the story, then they'd rightly refuse to do it that way, (and so, one would hope, would SRD if he hadn't sold the rights yet), yet it's definitely a viable version, unpalatable as it may be. *sigh*

Even in a 3-movie set, it's going to be recieved as a LOTR wannabe I very much fear. Quest, War, Retaliation/Victory. Seems failry set-piece, doesn't it? The secret of course, is in the finer detail.

--A

[wayfriend]

I guess I owe a me sorry to everyone whom I've apalled by mentioning cutting the celebration of Spring.

Is it important to the story? Very. It establishes that Foul is out to destroy the beauty of the Land. But, as I tried to say --- everything you cut is important, but it's gotta be cut anyway.

Every adaption has a Bombadil.

But we didn't cut it yet, folks. Relax.