(See above.)sgtnull wrote:so the Oath is binding even if you don't actively take it? how can you be held to something you don't even state?
Hile Troy
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IrrationalSanity
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While Troy didn't take the Oath, he did swear his allegence to the (new) Lords, who's purpose was defined in the Oath.
The Bloodguard's Vow was sworn to the Old Lords, who had no such oath, and therefore they weren't quite as bound as Troy.
The Bloodguard's Vow was sworn to the Old Lords, who had no such oath, and therefore they weren't quite as bound as Troy.
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Linden Lover and proud of it...
But I love my wife more!
"Desecration requires no knowledge. It comes freely to any willing hand." - Amok
Linden Lover and proud of it...
But I love my wife more!
"Desecration requires no knowledge. It comes freely to any willing hand." - Amok
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Hile Troy
Does anyone think there was anything that Troy could have done to
win his war? Foul had infinite power and infinite resources. No matter
what Troy did, I don't think it would have been enough.
And truthfully, I don't think that Foul gave a whit about beating the
Lords down at all. From the time Covenant entered the land until
the big showdown between them, everything that Foul did was
calculated to break Covenant so that he would be willing to give
Foul his ring.
Even with the Staff of Law in the hands of the Lords, Foul could
have used the Illearth Stone and his own native might to turn
Revelstone into a greasy spot if he had been interested in taking
out the Lords.
Troy could have been the greatest military strategist and
tactician of all time, but he still would have lost.
win his war? Foul had infinite power and infinite resources. No matter
what Troy did, I don't think it would have been enough.
And truthfully, I don't think that Foul gave a whit about beating the
Lords down at all. From the time Covenant entered the land until
the big showdown between them, everything that Foul did was
calculated to break Covenant so that he would be willing to give
Foul his ring.
Even with the Staff of Law in the hands of the Lords, Foul could
have used the Illearth Stone and his own native might to turn
Revelstone into a greasy spot if he had been interested in taking
out the Lords.
Troy could have been the greatest military strategist and
tactician of all time, but he still would have lost.
Ew...posting twice isn't nice. Sorry about that. Dunno what happened there. Anyway...
I sing of arms and the man
Of Hile Troy I sing, and the bad rap he gets. Golly Moses! A break render unto him. Bear in mind that poor Hile was created to be an everyman in a story where the protagonist (Lead? Main character? Star?)was an anti-hero -- as noted upthread, he was written as a foil, and was therefore doomed from the starting gun.
But within the parameters of his doom, he was treated very fairly by the author, and I think the character is one of SRD's finest achievements. Hile Troy isn't written as merely a boor, as he easily could have been. And so his fate is tragic, not punitive, his end isn't a punishment for his flaws. Troy is, most emphatically, a Decent Guy.
Troy works at being decent. From his first interactions with Covenant, we see Troy straining every nerve to understand Covenant's attitude, an attitude he finds instinctively repellent. On a basic level, it's a personality clash -- they're two opposing personality types, and they would have found a way to annoy each other in any situation or alternate universe.
Covenant's an introverted navel-gazer; Troy's a Can Do extrovert with boundless energy. Covenant is almost religiously dedicated to resisting change, while Troy easily assimilates, adapts and rolls with the times. Under the best of circumstances the two would have a hard time seeing eye to eye, and in the powder keg atmosphere of impending war, they inevitably clash.
Yet we see Troy making attempts to meet Covenant halfway, a gesture Covenant doesn't return. More than once Troy seeks out Covenant in Revelstone to give him the Come to Jesus, and he even tries to break up the scuffle when a maddened Trell attacks Covenant. It's only after Covenant cops to raping Lena that Troy starts seriously badmouthing him to the Lords.
And even after that, Troy makes another attempt at forbearance:
(Interestingly, he makes good on this promise in TWL, when he comes to Covenant's rescue as a cloud of solicitous green spangles. He even exhibits remorse for his attempt on Covenant's life, guiding the nurse-spiders to bandage Covenant's forehead even though the old shameful wound is no longer visible.
Troy makes a lot of reckless, binding promises in TIW, because there's a streak of recklessness in his character. But also he fulfils them all, sooner or later, because his heart is pure.
)
As TIW veers off to follow Troy's POV, we learn about some of his virtues, better traits that were not significantly on display during his contact with Covenant. He's got a sense of proportion, and he's got tact. He's able to relax of an evening, and he can keep his mouth shut at need. He has a capacity for friendship, and his love of the Land is sincere and compelling. When push comes to shove, he isn't afraid to get his hands dirty, to fight, or to die.
Sadly for him, Foul declines to fight fair.
Troy falters on KW when he finally gets a glimpse of the enemy's forces, and he snaps like a dry twig. He takes a header and is only saved by the swift action of a Bloodguard. But it takes him only moments to recover, and in the clinch he comes up with an alternate strategy, a wild and riskly plan that actually succeeds. And he offers to pay the price of this success without hesitation, ending his human arc as a casualty of war -- and a victim of iron fate.
Troy, as foil, everyman, and Dead Duck, represented personal responsibilty in TIW. The willingness to take personal responsibilty in the "Real" world may be hubris, or it may simply be common decency. But for Troy, a stranger in the Land, it amounted to a well-meant but fatally limited pragmatism that cost him everything he had to lose.
By contrast Convenant's philosophy -- a complex and tormented abdication of responsibilty -- can seem either the anguished cry of a wounded soul or sheer cussedness, and by TIW's end how the author intended it to read is not absolutely clear. What's left is the question of which approach is more sympathetic, more attractive, to a reader who's been shown the pitfalls of each.
And a winner is Hile Troy. While the Annointed Savior of the Land hemmed, hawed and prevaricated, Troy, his luckless also-ran, got down to business. Troy made the hard choices and tough decisions. He worked with what he had, and he wasted not a moment crying for the moon.
Troy gave of his best, he never said Die, and he went down swinging. From first to last the guy was a trier, and you can't say fairer than that.
I sing of arms and the man
Of Hile Troy I sing, and the bad rap he gets. Golly Moses! A break render unto him. Bear in mind that poor Hile was created to be an everyman in a story where the protagonist (Lead? Main character? Star?)was an anti-hero -- as noted upthread, he was written as a foil, and was therefore doomed from the starting gun.
But within the parameters of his doom, he was treated very fairly by the author, and I think the character is one of SRD's finest achievements. Hile Troy isn't written as merely a boor, as he easily could have been. And so his fate is tragic, not punitive, his end isn't a punishment for his flaws. Troy is, most emphatically, a Decent Guy.
Troy works at being decent. From his first interactions with Covenant, we see Troy straining every nerve to understand Covenant's attitude, an attitude he finds instinctively repellent. On a basic level, it's a personality clash -- they're two opposing personality types, and they would have found a way to annoy each other in any situation or alternate universe.
Covenant's an introverted navel-gazer; Troy's a Can Do extrovert with boundless energy. Covenant is almost religiously dedicated to resisting change, while Troy easily assimilates, adapts and rolls with the times. Under the best of circumstances the two would have a hard time seeing eye to eye, and in the powder keg atmosphere of impending war, they inevitably clash.
Yet we see Troy making attempts to meet Covenant halfway, a gesture Covenant doesn't return. More than once Troy seeks out Covenant in Revelstone to give him the Come to Jesus, and he even tries to break up the scuffle when a maddened Trell attacks Covenant. It's only after Covenant cops to raping Lena that Troy starts seriously badmouthing him to the Lords.
And even after that, Troy makes another attempt at forbearance:
Troy makes this promise for Elena's sake, and for his own -- he wants to be the bigger man, and he recognizes candidly that there are currents swirling around Covenant that he can't fathom.Covenant, I really don't understand what your trouble is. But if there's ever anything I can do for you, I'll do it.
(Interestingly, he makes good on this promise in TWL, when he comes to Covenant's rescue as a cloud of solicitous green spangles. He even exhibits remorse for his attempt on Covenant's life, guiding the nurse-spiders to bandage Covenant's forehead even though the old shameful wound is no longer visible.
Troy makes a lot of reckless, binding promises in TIW, because there's a streak of recklessness in his character. But also he fulfils them all, sooner or later, because his heart is pure.
)As TIW veers off to follow Troy's POV, we learn about some of his virtues, better traits that were not significantly on display during his contact with Covenant. He's got a sense of proportion, and he's got tact. He's able to relax of an evening, and he can keep his mouth shut at need. He has a capacity for friendship, and his love of the Land is sincere and compelling. When push comes to shove, he isn't afraid to get his hands dirty, to fight, or to die.
This isn't the reflection of a bloated ego; it isn't a guy swanning off at dawn to kick ass and impress a girl. Troy understands well enough that his abilites aren't ... well, magical: the best he can hope for is to beat Foul in a fair fight.The great wrought wall of the Keep became visible; it shone in the new light with a vivid glory that made him feel at once both small and resolute. In it, he caught a glimpse of the true depth of his willingness to sacrifice himself for the Land. Now he could only hope that what he had to offer would be enough.
Sadly for him, Foul declines to fight fair.
Troy falters on KW when he finally gets a glimpse of the enemy's forces, and he snaps like a dry twig. He takes a header and is only saved by the swift action of a Bloodguard. But it takes him only moments to recover, and in the clinch he comes up with an alternate strategy, a wild and riskly plan that actually succeeds. And he offers to pay the price of this success without hesitation, ending his human arc as a casualty of war -- and a victim of iron fate.
Troy, as foil, everyman, and Dead Duck, represented personal responsibilty in TIW. The willingness to take personal responsibilty in the "Real" world may be hubris, or it may simply be common decency. But for Troy, a stranger in the Land, it amounted to a well-meant but fatally limited pragmatism that cost him everything he had to lose.
By contrast Convenant's philosophy -- a complex and tormented abdication of responsibilty -- can seem either the anguished cry of a wounded soul or sheer cussedness, and by TIW's end how the author intended it to read is not absolutely clear. What's left is the question of which approach is more sympathetic, more attractive, to a reader who's been shown the pitfalls of each.
And a winner is Hile Troy. While the Annointed Savior of the Land hemmed, hawed and prevaricated, Troy, his luckless also-ran, got down to business. Troy made the hard choices and tough decisions. He worked with what he had, and he wasted not a moment crying for the moon.
Troy gave of his best, he never said Die, and he went down swinging. From first to last the guy was a trier, and you can't say fairer than that.
the rue of the melody could not be mistaken
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wayfriend
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Jwaneeta, there are many posts in here about Troy-as-Covenant's-Foil, and the author has remarked on it himself in the Gradual Interview (making the author's intention (at this date) crystal clear).jwaneeta wrote:Troy, as foil, everyman, and Dead Duck, represented personal responsibilty in TIW. ... By contrast Convenant's philosophy -- a complex and tormented abdication of responsibilty -- can seem either the anguished cry of a wounded soul or sheer cussedness, and by TIW's end how the author intended it to read is not absolutely clear. What's left is the question of which approach is more sympathetic, more attractive, to a reader who's been shown the pitfalls of each.
Rather than cover that ground over again, I will point out another remark from the author, made more recently.In the Gradual Interview was wrote:Frankly, I conceived of Hile Troy as an antidote to WhyDoesn'tCovenantGetOffHisButtAndDoSomething-itis. I was acutely aware that many of my readers, especially readers with a background in traditional sword-and-sorcery, would be very impatient with Covenant's ambivalence. I wanted a chance to discuss the implications (by which I mean the dangers) of *not* being ambivalent; and I created Troy as an exemplar of everything Covenant is not. You see the results. The only reason Troy didn't effectively destroy all of the Land's defenses is that Mhoram created an opportunity for him to sacrifice himself instead. Whatever the "answer to evil" may be, it cannot involve Hile Troy's unwillingness to question his own assumptions. Just try to imagine what would have happened to the Land if Troy were the ring-wielder.
(05/29/2004)
Hile Troy, is, indeed, the notion personified.In the Gradual Interview was wrote:Stating the same insight in terms that better suit my current thinking, I now believe that every weakness is a strength misapplied, and every strength is a weakness which has found its proper use. In one form or another, you’ll find such notions throughout the “Chronicles”.
(12/31/2005)
All the strengths which you find in Troy become weaknesses in the Land; they just play right into Foul's hands. All Covenant's weaknesses, which we've come to dislike if not despise, are shown to be, in the end, his strengths. The Creator chose Covenant. Because of his unbelief, and his stubborn principles, which become ambivalence. Such a man was necessary.
Troy was not chosen by the Creator. He was chosen, in the end, out of despair, out of the grief of Atairan's shattered heart. Foul's bread and butter! So of course, the result is someone who embodies the vision of a savior but in actuality he embodies it's path to destruction.
Hile Troy was so perfectly created!
.
Wayfriend said:
What I meant was, as of TIW (and only TIW), the effectiveness of Covenant's detatchment -- as opposed to Troy's hell for leather, straight-up-the-middle approach -- remained ambiguous. Troy bought the Forestrial farm, but he managed to destroy Flesharrower's army. Covenant, on the other hand, saw his sojourn with Elena end in disaster and left the novel without (apparently) accomplishing much in the way of Land-salvaltion.
It was left until TWL to show that Covenant was on the right track all along. In that book, even Troy got wise to Covenant's role at last -- and in his cameo as a bunch of helpful gleams he did all he could to save Covenant's bacon and further his mission.
What I was trying to point out is that Troy, as Troy (and The Illearth War is the only book in which he appears purely as human!Troy), is by no means a one-dimensional stock antagonist. He's got plenty of admirable qualities, and his take on the whole to-wield-or-not-wield quandry makes a lot of good, plain sense, from his perspective.
That his perspective is limited is not his fault, and this lack of culpability makes him a much more compelling character than he might have been. Authorial intent is plain that Troy was backing the wrong metaphysical horse, without question. But his reasons for backing the wrong horse sprang from pure motives, and it's no accident that he came across as admirable and sympathetic -- he was designed that way.
The GI quote, while harsh (sob! o, my woobie!), contains a pretty important insight:
So Troy's refusal to question his assumptions endangered the Land. I agree. But in the crisis, he seized on an immediate, short term solution to the mess he'd created for his forces (very Troyesque), and ended up giving his life. (Which is, c'mon, nothing to sneeze at. When was the last time you sold your soul to save your army? You think it's easy? )
With his offer to Caerroil Wildwood, Troy's decisiveness and native generosity saved him from a dreadful, Landwaste-y fate. And his undeniable flaws -- pride, impulsiveness, complacency, intolerance for opposing viewpoints -- added pathos and glory to his evolution throughout the first and second Chrons.
It's no sin to lose, after all. And if you lose with style, you may even pick up some fangirls.
I agree. I'm not debating whether or not he was a foil. Troy's the foiliest foil that ever foiled. That's established.Jwaneeta, there are many posts in here about Troy-as-Covenant's-Foil, and the author has remarked on it himself in the Gradual Interview (making the author's intention (at this date) crystal clear).
What I meant was, as of TIW (and only TIW), the effectiveness of Covenant's detatchment -- as opposed to Troy's hell for leather, straight-up-the-middle approach -- remained ambiguous. Troy bought the Forestrial farm, but he managed to destroy Flesharrower's army. Covenant, on the other hand, saw his sojourn with Elena end in disaster and left the novel without (apparently) accomplishing much in the way of Land-salvaltion.
It was left until TWL to show that Covenant was on the right track all along. In that book, even Troy got wise to Covenant's role at last -- and in his cameo as a bunch of helpful gleams he did all he could to save Covenant's bacon and further his mission.
What I was trying to point out is that Troy, as Troy (and The Illearth War is the only book in which he appears purely as human!Troy), is by no means a one-dimensional stock antagonist. He's got plenty of admirable qualities, and his take on the whole to-wield-or-not-wield quandry makes a lot of good, plain sense, from his perspective.
That his perspective is limited is not his fault, and this lack of culpability makes him a much more compelling character than he might have been. Authorial intent is plain that Troy was backing the wrong metaphysical horse, without question. But his reasons for backing the wrong horse sprang from pure motives, and it's no accident that he came across as admirable and sympathetic -- he was designed that way.
The GI quote, while harsh (sob! o, my woobie!), contains a pretty important insight:
(bolding mine)The only reason Troy didn't effectively destroy all of the Land's defenses is that Mhoram created an opportunity for him to sacrifice himself instead.
So Troy's refusal to question his assumptions endangered the Land. I agree. But in the crisis, he seized on an immediate, short term solution to the mess he'd created for his forces (very Troyesque), and ended up giving his life. (Which is, c'mon, nothing to sneeze at. When was the last time you sold your soul to save your army? You think it's easy?
) With his offer to Caerroil Wildwood, Troy's decisiveness and native generosity saved him from a dreadful, Landwaste-y fate. And his undeniable flaws -- pride, impulsiveness, complacency, intolerance for opposing viewpoints -- added pathos and glory to his evolution throughout the first and second Chrons.
It's no sin to lose, after all. And if you lose with style, you may even pick up some fangirls.
Last edited by jwaneeta on Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:13 am, edited 6 times in total.
the rue of the melody could not be mistaken
I would say that Covenant is an everyman, and Troy is the elitist. Covenant is an ordinary man living an ordinary life before the world beat him down, while Troy is a privileged technocrat from a gov't think tank who is accustomed to beating the world -- at least in abstract war games.jwaneeta wrote:Bear in mind that poor Hile was created to be an everyman in a story where the protagonist (Lead? Main character? Star?)was an anti-hero
I have more to say, but I must get off the computer for now.
Good post, though, jwaneeta. Even if such extensive praise for Troy makes me feel dizzy and nauseous...
jwaneeta, your ardent sympathy for Troy is remarkable. Almost makes me feel like a jerk for disagreeing with your views, but I have to be honest with my own feelings.
Still, one of the purposes of having discussions is to try to understand the other side. You love Troy, I...don't. But there is some common ground we share:
I agree Troy's fate is tragic, but not punitive. Nice way of putting it, jwaneeta. From the standpoint of Troy's human colleagues, it's tragic that his familiar human existence has come to an end: they've lost an inspirational leader and a fellow warrior of the Land. But from Caerroil Wildwood's perspective, this "end" of Troy's human life is not tragedy but transformation and hope for a new beginning: "Together we will restore life to Gallows Howe."
And unlike Forestals, I need sleep right now.
Still, one of the purposes of having discussions is to try to understand the other side. You love Troy, I...don't. But there is some common ground we share:
I agree that the character of Troy is a fine achievement. For me to have such an intense reaction (whether positive or negative) toward a fictional person means the author must have done a pretty good job! I would also agree that Troy is better than a boor. Sheriff Lytton is perhaps a boor, but not Troy.But within the parameters of his doom, he was treated very fairly by the author, and I think the character is one of SRD's finest achievements. Hile Troy isn't written as merely a boor, as he easily could have been. And so his fate is tragic, not punitive, his end isn't a punishment for his flaws. Troy is, most emphatically, a Decent Guy.
I agree Troy's fate is tragic, but not punitive. Nice way of putting it, jwaneeta. From the standpoint of Troy's human colleagues, it's tragic that his familiar human existence has come to an end: they've lost an inspirational leader and a fellow warrior of the Land. But from Caerroil Wildwood's perspective, this "end" of Troy's human life is not tragedy but transformation and hope for a new beginning: "Together we will restore life to Gallows Howe."
And unlike Forestals, I need sleep right now.
