Foul the Christian

[Furls Fire]

Um, I have never said that to anyone, nor would I ever imply that to anyone...

Anyone who knows me, knows that.

I respect everyone's beliefs, belief and faith or a lack there of are deep personal choices. If someone asks it of me (like Isaiah did) I will help them in their search for faith.

David asked what we thought about him joining a Christain church even tho he is still an athiest. My question to him was out of simple curiosity, nothing more and nothing less. He understood that and answered it. That is that.

[Fist and Faith]

Basically, that's what I said. But my way was funnier. But it may be true. If I did the search the right way, it looks like LM has never posted in Stephen's thread. It could be that he hasn't read enough of your posts to know that you couldn't have meant it the way he took it.

[Lord Mhoram]

Furls,

Not knowing you very well, that's the way I read the tone of your post. I keep rereading it and I keep seeing a leading question in "...is your athiesm really that strong?"

[Furls Fire]

With all due respect, LM. I was not asking you the question. Foul took it the way I meant it. His question peeked my curiosity, I know he's an Athiest, and I found it very curious that he was thinking about joining a Christain church...so, I asked the question. I wasn't "leading" him anywhere, and I certainly have no intention of trying to "convert" him, and I by NO MEANS feel superior to him in any way, shape or form. Nor, you for that matter, or any athiest.

If you have trouble believing that, just ask Fisty. He's one of my best friends here and an Athiest and I have nothing but the deepest respect for his athiesm. I have never once tried to convert him. Nor he me.

So, what ever you read in the question, was not my intent.

[The Leper Fairy]

just ask Fisty.

You call him Fisty too!

Anyhow, if you want rules and rituals and comraderie, how about the military? *shrug*

[Avatar]

Can't believe LM and Furls don't know each other!

Yeah, the whole "regimen" thing is definitely not a point in favour for me either.

I dunno, what makes me uncomfortable is this whole "to be part of this community, I must be Christian" thing. What kind of a community considers your worth to them in terms of your belief? (Or lack thereof?)

It just strikes me as...less than honest.

Oh, Foul, that quote:

Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)

I've always loved it, not to mention thought of him as one of the greatest American poets.

--A

[Fist and Faith]

just ask Fisty.

You call him Fisty too!

I'm pretty sure you were the first, and it spread.

[Worm of Despite]

I dunno, what makes me uncomfortable is this whole "to be part of this community, I must be Christian" thing. What kind of a community considers your worth to them in terms of your belief? (Or lack thereof?)

My family, and just about every fundamentalist Christian family if I announced suddenly that I had become an atheist or a homosexual.

For example, my grandmother believes "divorce is a living death". She also believes that my mother is an evil person for divorcing my father, despite him being a non-committal husband. The SIN of the act of divorce bothers her more than the practicality of it; how "DARE" she, my mother, break up the family! So what if he was a shell of a man who laid on the couch the moment he came home? What do you mean he had to display love? He worked, didn't he--he brought home money and took her out to eat, right?! What else is expected?

That is the kind of "understanding" I'd be facing. And knowing the climate of the South, I wouldn't be surprised if I received a similiar "understanding".

Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)

Thanks! Whitman was way of ahead of his time. None of that "O, the beauty of the tree has struck me melancholy" stuff. But that's for another thread, heh.

[Plissken]

For some reason, that WW quote always has me thinking, "Legion, for we are many..."

[Avatar]

That is the kind of "understanding" I'd be facing. And knowing the climate of the South, I wouldn't be surprised if I received a similiar "understanding."

Dude, what you gotta do is get out of there, and not join up with this community...

Anyway, look, in all seriousness, far be it from me to tell you about how to live, and far be it from me to condemn the path of least resistance, I've taken it myself often enough over some issues.

I really can't imagine that sort of thing...my family were always extremely liberal, and encouraged me to make up my own mind, even if they disagreed with me. That sort of repressive environment is just alien to me.

What's curious to me though is your apparent desire to become part of this community, even under false pretences as it were. Why? It's obvious that they won't accept you on your terms. What is so appealing about this community that will only accept you if you think and act just like they do?

I'm not trying to change your mind here or anything, but I'm trying to understand what makes it so worthwhile that you're willing to subsume yourself in it.

--A

[matrixman]

Lord Foul is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.

[Avatar]

Indeed he is, although I guess that to some extent, everybody is. To others at least.

--A

[Fist and Faith]

I think Lord Foul's grandmother got hold of his password, and it's her that's been posting in this thread.

[Prebe]

Got it Fist! You are right!

[Worm of Despite]

Why? It's obvious that they won't accept you on your terms. What is so appealing about this community that will only accept you if you think and act just like they do?

The appeal is, that if I decide on coming back to my town with a teaching degree, and I want to get more involved with my community, joining a church is an obvious choice. Perhaps the most obvious choice. It is the most acceptable, most immediate; the people I've known for years would be attending such churches. But is it so alien to conform? At some level, I think every group is like that. Maybe not as extreme as my case, but all of us, to some extent, have signed a social contract.

What's curious to me though is your apparent desire to become part of this community, even under false pretences as it were.

Well, I think the answer is very subjective. Not a right one, not a wrong one. All relative to how one is raised. You said yourself:

I really can't imagine that sort of thing...my family were always extremely liberal, and encouraged me to make up my own mind, even if they disagreed with me.

Obviously, we come from very different climates. Whether or not I'm a member of a church community or not, I have been hiding my ideals since I was 17. What's going to be the change? In the end, all I'm doing is staying the same, except now I will have what I desire: to be part of a common collective.

Where you people are moved to respond, I have developed a hard shell. Whether that is good or bad, I am not sure. Life has dealt me as it has, due to factors beyond my control. In this case, that just might well be a good. It makes my assimilation painless--a smooth transition into a majority group and their benefits. In any case, I feel happy in the choices that are tearing me: whether to become a part of a greater whole (not necessarily a Christian one) or remain a lone atheist. "Bliss was it in that dawn..."

[Avatar]

But is it so alien to conform? At some level, I think every group is like that. Maybe not as extreme as my case, but all of us, to some extent, have signed a social contract.

To a certain extent, we do all conform, certainly. It stops us from going to jail etc. But I'll definitely agree that your situation is a bit more extreme.

Signed a social contract huh? I don't remember anyone coming to me and asking if I approved of society, and wanted to be a part of it.

Obviously, we come from very different climates. Whether or not I'm a member of a church community or not, I have been hiding my ideals since I was 17. What's going to be the change? In the end, all I'm doing is staying the same, except now I will have what I desire: to be part of a common collective.

Damn, it's too difficult for me to say. My instinctive reaction is to say change the fact that you hide your ideals. (Curious: Hide them as in just don't talk about it? Or as in profess ideals other than your true ones?)

But then, however different my ideals were, nobody ever ostracised me because of them, (although they led to many, many vigorous debates), and perhaps that would have made things different.

Another part of my incomprehension here may stem from the fact that I have no interest whatsoever in being part of a collective. Above almost all else, I like individuality. My "self" is important to me. I'm not even particularly social.

I have a small circle of friends and accquaintences that I've maintained common ground with over the years, but beyond those few people and the occasional ancilliaries, and my even smaller group of family, I don't really notice or pay much attention to people, and I have the luxury of not caring much about, or being affected by, what people think of me.

I suspect that in your case though, what people think of you may, if nothing else, have a noticeable affect on your life.

a smooth transition into a majority group and their benefits. In any case, I feel happy in the choices that are tearing me: whether to become a part of a greater whole (not necessarily a Christian one) or remain a lone atheist. "Bliss was it in that dawn..."

Wordsworth huh? I like Blake: "I must create a system or be enslaved by another mans;"

What are those benefits, and what does that whole give you? Are you not whole in and of yourself?

--Avatar

[Worm of Despite]

Signed a social contract huh? I don't remember anyone coming to me and asking if I approved of society, and wanted to be a part of it.

Yep. They never ask us, but we all unconsciously agree to follow the laws of our given nation. I hope.

a smooth transition into a majority group and their benefits. In any case, I feel happy in the choices that are tearing me: whether to become a part of a greater whole (not necessarily a Christian one) or remain a lone atheist. "Bliss was it in that dawn..."

Wordsworth huh? I like Blake: "I must create a system or be enslaved by another mans;"

What are those benefits, and what does that whole give you? Are you not whole in and of yourself?

Well, I was just using Wordsworth to express my contentedness; I actually don’t like the Romantics much, aside from Coleridge and Shelley.

And no, I don't think anyone is whole in and of themselves. I believe we are all products of biology and experience--a mix. I am intrinsically attached to the light I see, the air I breathe, the sea of people around me; from them came my blood, my flesh. We wouldn't be who we are now if not for the systems that surround us. Our choices, our views, everything, is touched by some collective--whether it be family, friends, government, the universe. And here's another quote: "No man is an island, entire of itself..." And for the record, Donne is one of my favorites.

In the end, I am subject to something. I am subject to human infrastructure, to generations of information. My atoms will be subject to the heat death of the universe--or whatever nastiness will go down. I know few things; one of them is that I am going to die, and that choice is not mine. Wonderful. I didn’t think this thread could get anymore esoteric. Lovely, Foul!

But don't get me wrong. The wholeness of a person is a great idea to live by. Maybe it's right, maybe I'm wrong. I used to believe in it myself. I don't see total freedom anymore, though; I believe it's illusory. I believe that total freedom resides in total power, and no human being has that. God is power--if such a being exists. Or, conversely, one might say "the universe is power", if it indeed extrapolates the terms by which we exist.

What are those benefits, and what does that whole give you

Not sure yet, off the top of my head. Satisfaction--a piece moving into an empty space--that is the gut reaction. Why I feel that, though, is the conundrum. Was this longing placed there by outside factors or created by myself? Going to ruminate over it with some coffee. Will get back to you on that!

[Worm of Despite]

Wow, Av, we lost a really great discussion. At least I still have this quote to remind us of its warm glow:

As long as that is held nascent and stillborn and the people operate within a collective without rebellion, then they're essentially another piece--a contribution to its immortality, a cog. A powerful enough collective can make the unnatural appear natural, such that the moment of murder is no longer a crime but a "solution."

[Kymbierlee]

OK, I haven't been here for a while, but I'll chime in with my two cents. LF- I definitely think UU is the way to go. I am a Pagan and a UU. I go to church with people of ALL beliefs, including atheists. It is a very tolerant, accepting, warm place and sounds like just what you are looking for. The emphasis is on community and on being good to each other, striving for peace, and celebrating life. It's really a safe and wonderful place to be. If you have one near you, check it out. We are always happy to have guests in my church and I am sure any UU will feel the same way. The best thing is they will never pressure you to give up your beliefs or try to be something you are not.

[Avatar]

Wow, Av, we lost a really great discussion. At least I still have this quote to remind us of its warm glow:

As long as that is held nascent and stillborn and the people operate within a collective without rebellion, then they're essentially another piece--a contribution to its immortality, a cog. A powerful enough collective can make the unnatural appear natural, such that the moment of murder is no longer a crime but a "solution."

You're only quoting that so Plissken can tell you again how brilliant it is.

Yeah, *sigh* it was a great one. Still, the important thing is not that the words exist here, it's that we both read and thought about them...(Uh, what were you saying again? )

Kym, nice to see you here, you missed out some very interesting posts, lost in the great Turkish Hack Attack of '06. Still could'a been worse.

As I pointed out to Lord Foul, the piece I quoted here is perhaps my very point...the fact that the collective makes the unnatural appear natural means that all we strive for is a human ideal, a human endeavour, a human construct.

The real question is why he feels incomplete without it, and why he feels this urge to be a part of something that will not accept him for who he is.

--A