You and Unbelief

[Nerdanel]

Let's imagine that YOU are a leper and find yourself summoned to the Land. How would you react?

On my latest reread I really noticed how I and Covenant have drastically different views in some respects. It wasn't that I wanted Covenant to be a fantasy hero, but I noticed he was very much a different personality. I'd say Covenant is INFP (which I think SRD is also, the typical type for a fiction writer) while I am INTP. It's only a one letter difference, but its the difference between emotion and intellect. Covenant's primary function is inwards-directed feeling and my inwards-directed thinking.

So if I found myself in the Land, my first reaction would be that I had somehow been transported into a parallel reality. Next I would probably wonder if I was having a dream about being transported into a parallel reality, but since I appeared to be awake to myself (I rarely notice such matters at all in a dream), I was either awake (in which case I should take things seriously even if I would have found them unlikely to the extreme before eye-witnessing showed me otherwise) or asleep (in which case I would wake up probably sooner rather than later). So the cost/benefit analysis clearly indicated that to avoid unnecessary risks I should act as if I was awake and this was really happening. The "fundamental question of the ethics" is really asking the wrong question, as being brave is not a value in itself, only an occasional result of acting according to other values which may or may not be justifiable. Okay, solved that. Next!

Then there is the problem that I might lose the habits that protect me from leprosy, especially if the trip proved extended. Of course, if I was only asleep, it would be hard to lose any habits in that time, unless I would spend months or years in coma or something. So if I did get back home, my pragmatical responsibility would be to regain any habits that I might have lost. Perhaps I should post notes around the house, like "remember your medicine" or "do the VSE", or put an alarm clock to remind me of medicine times. If I have any important passwords I should probably try to repeat them in my mind occasionally so that I don't forget them while I can't use them.

I would make a lousy Unbeliever. I'm merely a sceptic.

[Zarathustra]

If I were a leper transported to the Land, I wouldn't waste one second worrying about whether or not it is real. I might question my memories of THIS world as being real, but not a fully realized, completely sensual and consensual reality in which I was immersed and interacting with others. To do so would be about as ridiculous as questioning the reality of the Real World in which we live now (yeah, I know that philosophers love to do this as a thought experiment, but nobody seriously questions the reality of this world--only the degree to which we can know it). I mean, how much more real can a world get? Even lucid dreams--and I've had many--are experientially distinct from our lives in the world (or people's lives in the Land).

So what would I do if I'd been Covenant? I'd play up the Berek hero-worship thing for all it's worth. I'd let everyone treat me like a god/king/savior, and really work on this Wild Magic thing. I'd use my influence to build up a "harem of the willing," and show them all how wild Wild Magic can really be!

Oh, and I would have killed Foul. And the ravers. Screw this messed up quilt complex that keeps TC from killing Foul in TPTP. Yeah, I know Foul would be part of me. But I'd kill that part. Paradoxical? Sure. The best way to ensure the party never stops? You bet!

I'd probably be a Diamondraught homebrewer, and realize Pitchwife's dream of mixing Diamondraught with vitrim and all other kinds of brew. Maybe Earthblood. That'd be cool.

I'd set up a Ranyhyn race track for the Land's gambling pleasure, and turn Revelstone into a magical theme park.

Yeah, I know, I'm scum. But that's exactly what I'd do.

[High Lord Tolkien]

It is a good question!
Too tough a question for me to answer realistically since I have no idea what living with leprosy is like.
If I was scared sh#tless like TC was after seeing the effects of someone *not* taking care of themselves then I'd say that yeah, I'd be a major a-hole like him too.
He said giving himself into a deam like that would kill him and I tend to agree.

[aTOMiC]

Having read the book multiple times I would likely begin by thinking "Holy crap! I'm in the Land." Then I'd fall over onto the flat stone of Kevin's Watch, curl up into a fetal position and begin dreading having to deal with Lord Foul, Drool Rockworm, Ur-viles, Ravers and worst of all the lack of toilet paper.

[sgt.null]

I would go with it. reality or delusion, I'm sure as hell not going to lay there crying like thomao s did. and when i find out the ring was magic, i would do everything i could to activate it.

[Digital Thought]

I would do exactly what Thomas Covenant did. Everything. I would do everything he did.

My wife & I enjoy movies like everyone else. Like many people, she constantly sighs, grumbles, or announces "bullshit" to a thing that someone did, and usually provides advice about how it could be better handled. Meanwhile, I'm sitting in my seat thinking, yeah, I'd like to see how you'd react to having a possible scene with the town-leper, you, turn into a meeting with a demon from another dimension where there is hope to be lost all over again. Yeah, I bet you'd make all the right decisions, wife of mine.

Then I shrug and lay back into the couch even more and smile to myself knowingly.

[Revenant]

It's a good "what if" question.
But after one answers what one would do if one was a leper and being summoned to the Land, one would have to ask oneself: "Then, would the Creator have chosen me as a champion in the first place?"

[sgt.null]

even if it turns out wrong, action is better than inaction.

[The Somberlain]

Unless you're Hile Troy

[Avatar]

The Taoists would disagree.

--A

[KAY1]

Not knowing what it is like to be a Leper, I agree with Nerdanel and would either think 'this is real so I will go along with it and still try and keep up my good habits' or 'its a dream so just enjoy it!'.

I tend to be all heroic in dreams so I would probably find myself in a lot of trouble!

[sgt.null]

it was Hile's fate to fail to prop up that loser Thomas...

[Variol Farseer]

I wouldn't waste a lot of time doubting the reality of the place I was in . . . but if people started treating me as some kind of legendary hero, I definitely WOULD doubt their sanity. I may not be the very least important person in this world — there's a lot of competition for that position, and it looks like a dead heat to me — but I am the least important person I have ever known. If there is another world (or universe) out there where someone like me could be of earthshaking importance, it's probably too alien to support human life.

[Digital Thought]

Here's another slant to it:

You are in the land. And you do exactly what everyone else is doing, which is pretty near nothing. No great heroics from you. No action superstar. Not all great decisions.


You see, it's easy to say "I would do this", when in fact, reality makes it a much more difficult scenerio.

I mean, this is your life! How much more important can you get than your very own life? If you were 1% of the man Thomas Covenant was, then you'd stomp out at least cancer. Just 1 thing. Can't you do even that? What kind of protagonist main character are you? Do something!!!! We're all waiting for you to do something.

[Variol Farseer]

I think I missed something in there, DT. It looked to me as if you were saying that any man who can't cure cancer is a wimp.

That is to say: 'Huh???'

[Usivius]

Srg said:

I would go with it. reality or delusion, I'm sure as hell not going to lay there crying like thomao s did. and when i find out the ring was magic, i would do everything i could to activate it.

... whoops, say goodbye to The Land and the Arch of Time...




(all in good fun, srg. ... if I wind up in a jain in Texas, get me a nice cell, k?)

[Digital Thought]

I think I missed something in there, DT. It looked to me as if you were saying that any man who can't cure cancer is a wimp.

That is to say: 'Huh???'

Well, I like to do pranks & make jokes, so a lot of what I do or say is sarcastic... in a nice way.

What I meant was that we are all living life out here & we have all this technology which in many ways resembles magic. I can talk to you on the phone right now and I don't know where you live but that is not a limitation. I'm just like Foul & Rockworm in that regard huh? And I can cure things with shots & reduce pain with drugs. We have hurtloam. We live in a fantastic world with fantastic tornadoes, computers, music...

And some of us would like to believe that we would do better than Thomas Covenant, should we be placed into the Land. We might even have aspirations of be like Hile Troy & totally accepting it. But he was blind & could see, where Covenant was numb & beginning the downward spiral toward the nickname Stumpy. There's a whole different set of reality comprehensions and how to deal with false hope of laser surgeries or drug treatments.

I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong & SRD was wrong & we're all wrong. Maybe we could be heroes there. I'd just like an explanation about how that could be. Let's say that I was a young marine. This gives me validity in being brave & desiring a strong life & training in an art that is open & freely available to all. SO I take it! Now I get transferred to another dimension. Well, I can handle myself, so there isn't a fear issue.

Wrong. There's maybe more realistic fear issue after I see some black men that have no noses, but rather 6" long vertical slits in their faces, and they have fangs, and they are lining up in wedges, because the guy in the front with the staff can weild magic. I don't care who you are, you are going to be freaked out.

Okay, that established, you will also be learning & growing. I agree with most of LFB regarding how Covenant handles his situation. He runs & gets in shape quick. It was told well enough. I don't know how possible it would be. He asks questions all the time. He defends himself as best he is able, even if that means not physically at all.

He's a conniving son-of-a-bitch, but if you have pity or sympathy for anything or anyone, you understand why he was a bastard.

Would you be different? Maybe. Hopefully. But you know, it's that conniving son-of-a-bitch disbelieving prick jerk attitude that helped him to love the land and its inhabitants and handle Foul by sheer emotion. I don't think Thomas could have ever beaten Foul by thinking about it. That would be like playing chess with God. It's just plainly unfair. So that's why Thomas was chosen. He could wing it pretty damned good. And he beat Foul. I don't think I could have done it. I would have been worse than Hile Troy & I would have thought myself to have been trying.

It could be that we're underestimating either the human spirit or the incredible power of Foul & all his minions. I would like to think I would try, but I might just look for a way out, and that might even be at the certain extintion of all the land's people. I'm not a coward, but I'm not a fool. Unless I have to deal with a person like Mike Tyson at his peak or Chuck Liddel right now, I'm going to stay away from even fighting. But if I was supposed to deal with a supernatural creature that wasn't killed by practically ripping the continent in two, um... I don't think I'll be singing any happy-go-lucky songs along the way to Revelstone.

[sgt.null]

Usivius: I'll get you a nice cellie.

everyone seems to assume that Thomas' way is the only way. maybe you could take control and find another way to win.

[Digital Thought]

everyone seems to assume that Thomas' way is the only way.

Not at all. But it is a believible way. We wouldn't be here otherwise.

[High Lord Tolkien]

I would do exactly what Thomas Covenant did. Everything. I would do everything he did.

Me too.
Except for the whole raping Lena thing.
Oh, I'd still have sex with her.
First I'd promise to take her for a ride on my brand new Ranyhyn.
Then I'd whisper into her ear that if she made love to me I'd save the Land.
Then, after a tender but somewhat selfish lovemaking on my part, I'd leave her first thing in the morning just like TC did.

And if my wife is any indication of my effects on females I'd also drive Lena insane just like TC too!