they should be all vegetarians

[djaef]

I reckon that the people of the Land should be vegetarians. If for no other reason than simply extending the logic of their lives. They love and respect nature, use wood and stone without damaging them - ie fire without destroying wood. They have no destructive behavious where nature is concerned whatsoever. But then we are expected to believe they slaughter animals and eat their flesh? Why not a peaceful vegetarian society - that'd be more in fitting with their beliefs.

Of course, many will disagree. Who cares. It's a book, not real life. But humour me. I think it would be more logical if the lords and the people of The Land did not eat dead animals.

[Spring]

Maybe they just eat animals that are already dead. Or ones that are alive. :eekyum:

[Avatar]

Well, they are clearly not vegetarians, however much sense it might make.

Many mentions are made of eating meat in the various books, although, nothing much is said about how they get it IIRC.

--A

[KAY1]

I must admit I considered this as well, even to the point where I thought how can the people of the Land eat at all? Think about it. To grow crops, you have to often clear areas of Land which may be wooded, or do they just find a clear spot and hope for the best? Then you have to take into account those people which don't use wood or stone lore, such as the Ramen. How do they make fire? Do the Lords etc approve if they simply burn wood? Do the Lords try and teach everyone how to use the Lore?

[Avatar]

the Ramen, who also eat meat, and therefore hunt, are not subject to the Lords, nor do they appear to make any use of Lore.

If you feel like looking for it, there is an interesting thread here called "Meatlore" in which, IIRC, the various issues are discussed.

--A

[KAY1]

I wonder how the nature loving Lords felt about the Ramen chopping down trees for fire etc. assuming that they did. I remember in TIW when Shetra and Verement travelled on the raft, SRD made a point of saying that the Bloodguard found a dead tree with which to build a raft. If there had been no dead trees, would they have abandoned the whole raft idea?

[sgt.null]

yes they should all give up eating meat and live in harmony.

[KAY1]

Yes they should live under the rule 'Meat is Murder'.

[Zarathustra]

As "nature lovers" (as some here describe the Lords) it would not make any sense whatsoever for them to be vegetarians. Vegetarianism is NOT our natural state. We evolved to be meat eaters. So abstaining from our biologically programmed eating patterns would be a DENIAL of our nature, and a denial of our place within the NATURAL food chain.

You "nature lovers" crack me up with your denial of those aspects that most closely tie us to nature. Our most intimate connection with the animal world is when we to take our place within the infinite chain of life-arising-from-death, i.e. the living feeding on the dead. This IS NATURE. Trying to pretend otherwise is inauthentic and silly.

Not everything about the natural world is cute and inoffensive. Some things about nature are difficult for the squeemish to except. (Just check out the breastfeeding thread in the Think Tank for evidence of this.) But you can't make nature something it is not. From such "pure" intentions, the doorway to Despite is opened. After all, Covenant refused to kill Lord Foul in TPTP because he realized that even Despite is part of nature, part of himself, and couldn't be killed in this way.

I've always thought that vegetarianism is just a gentle way to deny the reality of death within the natural world. But death is part of life. We should all rejoice in this "miracle" which allows new generations to spring from the old, for in consuming the dead (whether it be plant or animal), we derive our life. This is nature, folks.

[Revan]

Yeah, i remember that at the Ramen feast in the first book, there was meat served...

Yeah, I found myself wondering, how could they kill a creature and still stand by there beliefs?

Maybe the Ramen do it because they see the Ranyhyn sacred, and no other creature truly compares to them on any level.

[The Laughing Man]

can anyone name any "food" animals in the Land that were even mentioned? Besides slave animals, war animals, and magic animals, what else is there that would be a "food" animal?

[Zarathustra]

Good point, Esmer. Come to think of it, I don't actually remember anyone eating animals in the Chronicles. It's always liquor and berries. Maybe some bread. And didn't Foamfollower have some gigantic oranges?

I don't even remember people under the Sunbane eating meat. Hmm. . . can anyone point out an example?

[The Laughing Man]

don't forget them "boiling kresh for 2 weeks" to survive, but thats a war animal. And considering the diversity of species here on earth, doesn't the Land seem rather sparse? Is that because of Kevin's LandWasting episode?

[The Somberlain]

The first time I read it, I actually missed every reference to eating meat, and decided that they probably were vegetarians; after all, it doesn't seem to go with their Oath of Peace too well.

But my re-read indicated that they do (I think it mentions them eating beef in Lena's home). So... I dunno.

[tbsteph]

Clearly the people of the Land ate meat. I disagree that by doing so their love of the Land was, as a result, somehow tainted. If you use our World as an example, there is clearly a food chain within the animal kingdom that is designed for nurture but also to maintain a balance amongst plants and animals. I would presume the Land required the same type of balance. Thus, people (And other animals) eating meat seem totally appropriate and required for the good of the Land.

[djaef]

As "nature lovers" (as some here describe the Lords) it would not make any sense whatsoever for them to be vegetarians. Vegetarianism is NOT our natural state. We evolved to be meat eaters. So abstaining from our biologically programmed eating patterns would be a DENIAL of our nature, and a denial of our place within the NATURAL food chain.

I don't know if I could be bothered right now, as I need to make some dinner (vegetarian if you must know ), but I would just say that you should realise there are many, many people in the world who disagree with your contention that "Vegetarianism is NOT our natural state. We evolved to be meat eaters." Personally, I would say we evolved to be opportunistic herbivores, and that our body is designed on a biological level to function best on a vegetarian diet.

So you shouldn't talk as if we are talking about facts here. It is a very condescending attitude.

I've always thought that vegetarianism is just a gentle way to deny the reality of death within the natural world. But death is part of life. We should all rejoice in this "miracle" which allows new generations to spring from the old, for in consuming the dead (whether it be plant or animal), we derive our life. This is nature, folks.

Malik, you really need to take a chill pill. Your assumptions about vegetarians are offensive and condescending to the extreme. I'm sure it's not only meat eaters that can "rejoice in this "miracle" which allows new generations to spring from the old" as you say. Because as you yourself note, it can also be from plant life, that we derive our life from. We don't have to kill a cow to survive. Not only is it unneccesary, our health is better if we do not. So don't give me your closed minded stance of superiority. Accept that people think in many ways, and that you cannot be so sure of the supposed truth which you spout.

[sgt.null]

Malik: please explain how mass production, torture and butchering of animals is at all 'natural?' and additives, growth hormones, mad cow, scrapie, avian flu?

[Avatar]

can anyone name any "food" animals in the Land that were even mentioned? Besides slave animals, war animals, and magic animals, what else is there that would be a "food" animal?

From the Meatlore Thread:

LFB, Ch. 6, Legend of Berek Halfhand

It was a bountiful meal: there was cold salt beef covered with a steaming gravy, wild rice, dried apples, brown bread, and cheese

LFB, Ch. 11, The Unhomed

When Covenant loosened its drawstrings, he found salt beef, cheese, old bread, and more than a dozen tangerines as big as his two fists, as well as a leather jug which he could hardly lift.

And I can point out one from Runes of the top of my head, because I found it amusing that SRD chose that animal to mention.

The Ramen serve a stew of "wild" Eland. Which, in case anybody is unfamilair with them, is an African antelope. It's also the biggest antelope. Fully mature adult bulls weigh nearly a ton. I tried to imagine the Ramen hanging off one's neck by one of their garrottes.

--A

[drew]

can anyone name any "food" animals in the Land that were even mentioned? Besides slave animals, war animals, and magic animals, what else is there that would be a "food" animal?

Triock was a cattle herder.

[Avatar]

...I would just say that you should realise there are many, many people in the world who disagree with your contention that "Vegetarianism is NOT our natural state. We evolved to be meat eaters." Personally, I would say we evolved to be opportunistic herbivores, and that our body is designed on a biological level to function best on a vegetarian diet.

Sorry for the double post.

Although I do agree with much of what you said Djaef, I do disagree with that bit that I quoted.

although we can take much of our requirements from plant matter today, and although we did evolve as opportunist omnivores, we would never have reached our current state if our ancestors had not eaten meat.

Our evolution was shaped as much by the very fact that we hunted as by anything else. And our ancestors were heavily dependant on the protein and fat that a carnivorous diet was able to provide.

Indeed, many of our social habits today are adapted, not from the lifestyle of a herbivore, but from that of a carnivore.

If we had not eaten meat in our history, we would not be able to have the luxury of vegetarianism today.

If we truly had evolved as herbivores, our digestive tracts would be designed along the lines of ungulates, to extract the far smaller quantities of energy from plants more efficiently.

Man would never have become the animal that he is if meat, and the hunt, had not been a vital and intrinsic part of our development.

--A