they should be all vegetarians

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Zarathustra
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Post by Zarathustra »

Malik, you really need to take a chill pill. Your assumptions about vegetarians are offensive and condescending to the extreme. . . Not only is it unneccesary, our health is better if we do not. So don't give me your closed minded stance of superiority. Accept that people think in many ways, and that you cannot be so sure of the supposed truth which you spout.
So I should accept that people think in many ways, but you can't accept the fact that people express themselves with varying levels of certainty and assertiveness? It's okay for you, a complete stranger, to instruct me to modify my behavior, but I can't criticize the beliefs of vegetarians? I'm not going to change who I am or how I express myself to suit your sensitive nature. Just think of me as the Watch's own personal Nietzche. Lots of people thought he was arrogant, too. But he was right. So am I.

I have a tremendous amount of disdain for all the various ways in which people are inauthentic (Nietzsche called it, "not being true to the Earth"). And I happen to think vegetarianism is one of them. Religion is another. So is the PC movement and much of liberalism. Ironically, the present form of environmentalism is not "true to the earth."

If you don't agree with what I write, then by all means, try to prove me wrong. But don't tell me how to express myself. I won't be limited by your inability to read a critical opinion without being offended.

Oh, back to the vegetarian thing, Avatar is right. Eating meat shaped our evolution so fundamentally that both our bipedalism and our large brains can be linked to the influx of this HIGHLY nutrious form of food. Not needing the digestive track of a cow contributed to our ability and preference for an erect stature, and the densely available protein fueled our rapid brain growth. Saw it on the Discovery channel, so it's got to be true. :)

And, I don't believe this crap about vegetarians being healthier. I eat plenty of meat, and all my medical indicators are just fine (triglycerides, blood sugar, blood pressure, etc.) How on earth can eating what our bodies were evolutionarily made to eat be unhealthy? Sure, there are lots of unhealthy examples of meat (Sgnull mentioned hormones, etc.). But there are also certain kinds of meat that doctors advise pregnant women, for instance, to eat (salmon, for brain development of the fetus). My son's doctor once advised us to feed him more beef because he had tested low on iron.

Vegetarianism is more a moral stance than a health issue. Just look at this thread for evidence that people think it's "closer to nature," and something the Lords should have adopted as peace-loving folk. No one cares about whether or not it would make the Lords healthier. I think vegetarians fool themselves into thinking that their quasi-religious stance with regards to their food choices is healthier so they can justify a largely emotional choice as something resembling a rational decision. This quasi-religious, moral view of food is the reason most of the vegetarians I've meet act superior and enlightened.

So, yeah, I give it right back to them.
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Post by djaef »

Malik23 wrote:So I should accept that people think in many ways, but you can't accept the fact that people express themselves with varying levels of certainty and assertiveness? It's okay for you, a complete stranger, to instruct me to modify my behavior, but I can't criticize the beliefs of vegetarians? I'm not going to change who I am or how I express myself to suit your sensitive nature. Just think of me as the Watch's own personal Nietzche. Lots of people thought he was arrogant, too. But he was right. So am I.
Yes, so are you. Arrogant that is. And you are missing the point completely. I'm not trying to modify your or anyone else's behaviour. My entire point was that there is no FACT in this case. You might think yourself certain of your beliefs, and congratulations to you, but it is arrogant beyond measure to not acknowledge that other people think differently, if only in a small symbolic fashion. How difficult is it to say " I believe that we evolved to be meateaters". That is infinitly more polite than saying how deluded vegetarians are and we ARE meateaters etc..
Malik23 wrote: I have a tremendous amount of disdain for all the various ways in which people are inauthentic (Nietzsche called it, "not being true to the Earth"). And I happen to think vegetarianism is one of them. Religion is another. So is the PC movement and much of liberalism. Ironically, the present form of environmentalism is not "true to the earth."
Yes, it's very clear that you have a lot of disadain for all sorts of people. That's really what gets up my nose. I'm no more sensitive than the next guy, so don't try and undermine my validity with that sort of cheap shot.
Malik23 wrote:If you don't agree with what I write, then by all means, try to prove me wrong. But don't tell me how to express myself. I won't be limited by your inability to read a critical opinion without being offended.
I'm not particularly interested in trying to prove you wrong. You are entitled to your opinion just as much as anyone else is. And you don't have to listen to my suggestions on how you might better express yourself. It's totally up to you if you want to come across as an arrogant wanker. But a certain level of politeness is usually seen to be a smart thing on the Internet.
Malik23 wrote:And, I don't believe this crap about vegetarians being healthier.
No, obviously not, if you think it is crap.
Malik23 wrote:Vegetarianism is more a moral stance than a health issue. Just look at this thread for evidence that people think it's "closer to nature," and something the Lords should have adopted as peace-loving folk. No one cares about whether or not it would make the Lords healthier. I think vegetarians fool themselves into thinking that their quasi-religious stance with regards to their food choices is healthier so they can justify a largely emotional choice as something resembling a rational decision. This quasi-religious, moral view of food is the reason most of the vegetarians I've meet act superior and enlightened.
YOU think it is more a moral stance than a health issue. I can tell you that there are many reasons people become vegetarians, from tradition, health, ethics, allergies etc..

I'm not even interested in a debate of the virtues or otherwise of any particular diet. I believe people can eat what they freaking well want. If they want to eat dead cows, go for it. Rabbit food - yay! whatever turns you on.

My original comments and questioning whether the inhabitants of the Land would have been more complete in their character if they were vegetarians stem from the book, not from my own position on any dietary beliefs. You just arrogantly come along and deride evrybody's opinion except your own and even more arrogantly make that fact plain. Nietzche you're not - although you probably see yourself as Superman...

So, in short, consider this discussion closed. I have no interest in debating with people who clearly demonstrate their inability to be balanced, polite or even just a tiny bit humble. You should consider changing your name to "God".
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Post by Lady Revel »

The Esmer wrote:
can anyone name any "food" animals in the Land that were even mentioned? Besides slave animals, war animals, and magic animals, what else is there that would be a "food" animal?
From LFB, pg 61
As she and Covenant started down towards the stonedown, Lena said, "Five times a hundred people of the South Plains live here-rhadhamaerl, Shepherds, Cattleherds, Farmers, and those who craft.
Sounds like Sheep and Cattle to me, and they aren't usually kept as pets. ;)
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Post by drew »

You mena, you don't have a pet sheep?

Has anyone ever read a fantasy where there were people who were vegatarians?
Other than Beorn from the Hobbit, I don't know of any.
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Post by Loredoctor »

Malik23 wrote:Just think of me as the Watch's own personal Nietzche. Lots of people thought he was arrogant, too. But he was right. So am I.
:LOLS: :roll:

That would be very difficult to do; gave up taking you seriously recently.
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Post by The Laughing Man »

Thanx, Avatar, drew, m'Lady Revel. yet, for some reason I have a hard time accepting different worlds with earth animals. If you're going to create a fantasy world, it should have fantasy animals! :-x
Lady Revel wrote:Sounds like Sheep and Cattle to me, and they aren't usually kept as pets. ;)
how true! and yet, they are sometimes kept as lovers..... 8O
:lol:
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Post by sgt.null »

sheep are kept for pets, as well as show animals and some are kept just for the wool.
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Post by Seareach »

I think it's all got to do with the degrees: do they have to take their beliefs to extremes in order to be faithful to those beliefs/their "Lore"? I don't think they do.

The way I look at it, it's more about "making do" if you can, avoiding *needless* destruction, just as the Oath of Peace is an oath against "needless" violence, but not an all-encompassing oath that prevents those who believe in it from becoming involved in violent acts. eg: slaying Foul's armies is an act of self preservation, they *need* to do it but it is also an act of violence. Does the fact that the Ramen and the Lords (or who ever) eat meat really conflict with their beliefs? I don't think it does. They do it out of necessity. If they were going out having mass meat-eating orgies, or slaughtering thousands of animals for the sake of their hides I'd be concerned. But they're not. They're eating in order to survive (the consumption of meat--the slaughter of animals--therefore isn't "needless destruction").

I'm a trained archaeologist, so I believe that meat eating is "necessary" to ensure the preservation of societies. It would make no sense to me that the people of the land could survive (in the societies that they do) for thousands of years without the consumption of meat. But regardless of that (since this is a fantasy world we're talking about, and not the "real world"), I think that avoiding "needless acts" demonstrates fidelity to their beliefs.

As for Nietzche.... ;)
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Post by Avatar »

Malik23 wrote:But don't tell me how to express myself. I won't be limited by your inability to read a critical opinion without being offended.
It's perfectly possible to offer a dissenting opinion without either being offensive, or belittling the opinions of others. If you consider that a limitation, perhaps you simply lack confidence in your communication skills.

You could have had a very good post there Malik. You made some points that were interesting, and worthy of both discussion and consideration. But you buried them instead in your prideful disdain. A true shame. And for what? Some personal conviction of superiority?

Not only does it serve nobody, least of all yourself, but didn't Nietzsche say "Convictions are a greater foe of Truth than lies have ever been"?

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Post by Marv »

:goodpost:
It'd take you a long time to blow up or shoot all the sheep in this country, but one diseased banana...could kill 'em all.

I didn't even know sheep ate bananas.
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Post by NightBlaze »

Um....I see some tension, so, lighten up. Here. This is why the people of the land might become vegetarians at some point. A cow has been corrupted and now serves Lord Foul.
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Post by Marv »

Malik23 wrote:As "nature lovers" (as some here describe the Lords) it would not make any sense whatsoever for them to be vegetarians. Vegetarianism is NOT our natural state. We evolved to be meat eaters. So abstaining from our biologically programmed eating patterns would be a DENIAL of our nature, and a denial of our place within the NATURAL food chain.

But death is part of life. We should all rejoice in this "miracle" which allows new generations to spring from the old, for in consuming the dead (whether it be plant or animal), we derive our life. This is nature, folks.

some of Maliks views on vegetarianism are quite funny and misguided. im a vegan...FOR HEALTH REASONS. do you know how bad dairy is for you? if your going to waste your time spouting your opinions why not just spend 10 mins googling for more info.

anyway, i quoted malik because i actually wouldnt disagree with anything he sais here. the eating of meat surely did play a big part in human development and i think it is natural for the people of the land to eat meat. BECAUSE THEY KEEP THEIR PLACE WITHIN THE NATURAL FOOD CHAIN. WE DONT!!! the next time you finish that huge 15 oz steak ask yourself, "did i really need all that?". i wouldnt imagine there are many fat people in the land do you? how many people arent fat in our world for christ sake!!? whole species have become extinct because of fat ignorant humans. its a disgrace.

im going to drag my vegan body for a 15 mile run tomorrow morning so i'm doing fine...care to join me?
It'd take you a long time to blow up or shoot all the sheep in this country, but one diseased banana...could kill 'em all.

I didn't even know sheep ate bananas.
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Post by Zarathustra »

I've dropped this conversation weeks ago. My opinions on this issue are offensive to others. Some have suggested that it is not my opinions that are offensive, but the way I say them. However, saying it in a less offensive way would be a diminishment of the actual disdain I really do feel. Since I like everyone here, I'm going to abstain from this discussion because I'm simply unwilling to water down my opinion.
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Post by Marv »

fair enough. personally i'm more interested in someone that makes there opinions known than not at all. my sensibilities can handle a terse tone.
i think only one person had a problem anyway.
It'd take you a long time to blow up or shoot all the sheep in this country, but one diseased banana...could kill 'em all.

I didn't even know sheep ate bananas.
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Post by sgt.null »

damn meat eaters. sod off.

that went well. :)
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Post by Buckarama »

Humans started eating meat to support the large protien needed for the large brain. So,... eat meat and be smart! or something.

I think the key here is "unnecessary" violence.
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Post by Marv »

Buckarama wrote:Humans started eating meat to support the large protien needed for the large brain. So,... eat meat and be smart! or something.

I think the key here is "unnecessary" violence.
well, i think we started to eat meat and as an unforseen consequence got smarter. but we-in our world-dont need to eat meat anymore for health or any other reason you can think of. meat provides us with too much protein in most cases which the body simply turns into toxins. anyway, one protein shake a day and a few vitamin tablets and all the nutritional value of meat is had-without the gristle!
It'd take you a long time to blow up or shoot all the sheep in this country, but one diseased banana...could kill 'em all.

I didn't even know sheep ate bananas.
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Post by Buckarama »

Gristle is bad. Meat good. Depends on how ya want to do it I guess, I do prefer steak to vitamin tablets :)
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Post by DukkhaWaynhim »

I think a compelling argument can be made for adopting any one of the various vegetarian/vegan/carnivorous-frenzy diets that exist, based on simple preference, religious practices, health concerns, availability of food, even time of the month. A fundie is a fundie (fundamentalist), regardless of whether we are talking religion or any other practice that can be taken to an extreme or otherwise brandished as a way to indoctrinate others into behavior that would not naturally occur to them.

Getting back to the original topic of this thread, though - others have already pointed out that meat was definitely on the Landsfolks menu. No Mcburgers, though.

So, adapting the Oath of Peace to a eating regime, I would say that as long as you honored the Land and its creatures, and avoided the wholesale slaughter of anything (except kresh), you could have beef stew with your aliantha without being automatically labeled a servant of Despite.

I'm not into Nietzsche, but I do like real bacon bits on my salad.

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Post by sgt.null »

so no extinction in the land?
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