Thoughts On Second Chronicles / Rereading

[exnihilo]

I recently reread the first chrons, and now I have started the second. This is the first time I have read these series since reading them about twice (some books more than others) between the ages of 10 and 11 (22 years ago). This may be too much personal information for some:

Spoiler

I suppose this is ironical given the themes of the novels, but my quasi-fundamentalist parents thought the Covenant books were *evil* tomes reeking of sorcery, necromancy, witchcraft and the occult... just like D&D, which was not allowed... They thought -- with some justification, although they might have been culpable too -- that I was immersing myself in a fantasy world and ignoring the real world. What can I say, I was 11. Anyway, one day my dad had enough and he ripped up my books and threw them away in front of me. Jeez, just retelling the tale rekindles a little bit of the rage and hatred that 11 year old boy felt at what can only be described as a symbolic murder.

Part of the charm of rereading the books is trying to compare my memories of how I reacted to these books so many years ago with my contemporary reactions. I have to report that I am a great deal more critical and a lot less credulous than I was at age 11! Although the books still grab me viscerally in a lot of ways, I suppose I am more conscious of the effects they have upon me, and sometimes I have to qualify my emotional complicity with what SRD is trying to achieve. Still, Saltheart Foamfollower got me -- got me at the end of TPTP.

Spoiler

His return was more beautiful, more transcendent, more genuine than Gandalf's in The Lord of the Rings.

So now I've picked up The Wounded Land, and some of the themes and motifs seemed to jump out at me a bit, giving rise to two questions to ponder (and perhaps even ask SRD):

• What role did The Exorcist play in inspiring or suggesting the narrative about Joan?
• When the initial idea for the Second (and, by extension, Third) Chronicles came upon SRD, was this immediately after the Jonestown Massacre? What did/does SRD think about Reverend Jim Jones and his ilk, and did this reaction help to inspire the Chronicles?

Part of this line of thought came about as the result of a question I submitted to SRD recently about Hile Troy. (I doubt he will answer it, though that is up to him.) Basically I called part of the premise of The Illearth War into question as I felt Hile Troy's characterization was fundamentally flawed and implausible. After a couple of days I began to realize that one of the hidden themes or subtexts of the Chronicles is Vietnam. Consequently one cannot take SRD's opinion of the military establishment in a literal fashion, without passing it through the prism of the national experience of Vietnam. The hubris he exposes in The Illearth War was symptomatic of the political (and military, though to a lesser extent) leadership of the Vietnam era. Consequently my objections are, in large measure, anachronistic -- though many of you would no doubt apply the same hubris to the current administration, not without justification.

So anyhow, thinking about the era when these books were written/imagined kind of opened the door to the impact of watershed cultural events on SRD, two of which are... The Exorcist and the Jonestown Massacre.

Anyway, these are my thoughts, although I'm not sure how organized they are at this time. Thanks for listening.

[Avatar]

Great post ExNihilo, and rest assured that no stroy on the Watch is "too much information." We're always grateful for what people are willing to share with us. Indeed, that story almost begs a thread of it's own, although not in this section of the board.

I'll have to think about your comments though, I'm not sure how much I agree with you, althugh certainly we would expect the external reality to have some influence on the author, but how much and to what regard is open to debate.

The numerous Hile Troy threads are there if you'd care to give your explanation of Troy's flaws, an explanation I for one will be interested to read.

What specifically puts you in mind of Jonestown? And I think the war probably counts as another cultural watershed there.

Interesting questions. I loko forward to seeing everybodies thoughts.

--Avatar

[exnihilo]

Thanks for your reply Avatar, I will give your suggestions serious consideration!

I edited the post and added some to it... I apologize for trying to get you to reread it again so soon!

[Avatar]

Haha, no worries, I did reply rather quickly.

--A

[exnihilo]

What specifically puts you in mind of Jonestown?

A line from Chapter 3 TWL:

[Covenant is describing the history of Joan's condition to Lind en A very] A year ago, she became a fanatic. Took Roger and went to join a commune. One of those places where people learn the ecstasy of humiliation, and the leader preaches love and mass suicide.

"JONESTOWN" just jumped right out at me when I read that. Knowing the timeframe when the second series was conceived and TWL written (ca. 1977-1980), and having a notion that SRD would probably have a fairly strong opinion about Jones' cult and the reasons people follow leaders like that, the idea struck me that the events of that time might have helped to inspire the plot of the second chronicles. It is apparent to me in that he explores similar themes in his novels (murderous cults, religious fundamentalism), that Jonestown is probably something that SRD would take notice of and probably even analyze for a while. Was it on his mind when Lester Del Rey proposed just the right bad idea at the right time?

[exnihilo]

Actually, it would be quite a bit unsettling if the series was conceived and the book written prior to Jonestown... eerie and prophetic, almost!

[Avatar]

Interesting question. I'm not sure what the global prevelance of cults was like at that time, or whether Jonestown was the first noteworthy (or newsworthy) case of it, but it certainly seems like a logical possibility.

Naturally the concept is not as new as Jonestown, but if it was a big media event, (you know what I mean), then it seems likely that it may indeed have been a factor, or at least, that some similar incidence was. Certainly the time-line seems to fit, the suicide/murder/whatever took place near the end of 1978 I see, and TWL published in 1980.

No idea how known such cults were at the time. Would guess that the less well known, the more likely it would be that this incident was a catalyst of some sort.

--A

[exnihilo]

Here's an interesting article I just found:

Background of the People's Temple:
This was a Christian destructive, doomsday cult founded and led by James Warren Jones (1931-1978). Jim Jones held degrees from Indiana University and Butler University. He was not a Fundamentalist pastor as many reports in the media and the anti-cult movement claim. He belonged to a mainline Christian denomination, having been ordained in the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ. (At the time of his ordination, the DoC allowed a local congregation to select and ordain a minister on their own. However, ordinations conducted without denominational endorsement were not considered valid within the rest of the church.)

The Peoples Temple was initially structured as an inter-racial mission for the sick, homeless and jobless. He assembled a large following of over 900 members in Indianapolis IN during the 1950's. "He preached a 'social gospel' of human freedom, equality, and love, which required helping the least and the lowliest of society's members. Later on, however, this gospel became explicitly socialistic, or communistic in Jones' own view, and the hypocrisy of white Christianity was ridiculed while 'apostolic socialism' was preached." 1 It was an interracial congregation -- almost unheard of in Indiana at the time. When a government investigation began into his cures for cancer, heart disease and arthritis, he decided to move the group to Ukiah in Northern California. He preached the imminent end of the world in a nuclear war; Ukiah was judged to be as safe as any when war broke out. They later moved to San Francisco and Los Angeles. After an expose during the mid 1970's in the magazine New West raised suspicions of illegal activities within the Temple, he moved some of the Temple membership to Jonestown, Guyana. The Temple had leased almost 4,000 acres of dense jungle from the government. They established an agricultural cooperative there, called the "Peoples Temple Agricultural Project." They raised animals for food, and assorted tropical fruits and vegetables for consumption and sale.

Jones developed a belief called Translation in which he and his followers would all die together, and would move to another planet for a life of bliss. Mass suicides were practiced in which his followers pretended to drink poison and fell to the ground.

During the late 1970's, Jones had been abusing prescription drugs and appears to have become increasingly paranoid. Rumors of human rights abuses circulated. As in most high-intensity religious groups, there was a considerable flow of people joining and leaving the group. Tim Stoen, the Temple attorney and right-hand man to Jones left to form Concerned Relatives who claimed that Jonestown was being run like a concentration camp, and that people were being held there against their will. This motivated Leo Ryan, a Congressman, to visit Jonestown in 1978-NOV for a personal inspection. At first, the visit went well. Later, on NOV-18, about 16 Temple members decided that they wanted to leave Jonestown with the visitors. This came as quite a blow to both Jones and the rest of the project. While Ryan and the others were waiting at Port Kiatuma airfield, the local airstrip, some heavily armed members of the Temple's security guards arrived and started shooting. Congressman Ryan and four others were killed; three were members of the press; the other was a person from Jonestown who wanted to leave. 11 were wounded. Fearing retribution, the project members discuss their options. They reach a consensus to commit group suicide. 914 died: 638 adults and 276 children. Some sources say 911 died. Most appear to have committed suicide by drinking a grape drink laced with cyanide and a number of sedatives, including liquid Valium, Penegram and chloral hydrate. Some sources say it was Kool-Aid; others say FlaVor-Aid®. Other victims appear to have been murdered by poison injection. The Guyanese coroner said that hundreds of bodies showed needle marks, indicating foul play. Still other victims were shot. A very few fled into the jungle and survived. The bodies were in a state of extensive decay when the authorities arrived. There was no time to conduct a thorough investigation. TV station KTVU in San Francisco CA has a collection of photographs of the "Peoples temple Agricultural Project." Some are quite disturbing. Unfortunately, their web site implies that all of the dead committed suicide.

[exnihilo]

Interesting question. I'm not sure what the global prevelance of cults was like at that time, or whether Jonestown was the first noteworthy (or newsworthy) case of it, but it certainly seems like a logical possibility.

Naturally the concept is not as new as Jonestown, but if it was a big media event, (you know what I mean), then it seems likely that it may indeed have been a factor, or at least, that some similar incidence was. Certainly the time-line seems to fit, the suicide/murder/whatever took place near the end of 1978 I see, and TWL published in 1980.

No idea how known such cults were at the time. Would guess that the less well known, the more likely it would be that this incident was a catalyst of some sort.

--A

Yes, given those dates you would have to assume that the book was already underway at the time of the massacre... apparently SRD is blessed with a bit of prescience to go along with his literary virtuousity!

It is also interesting that Jim Jones' movement originated in Indiana, which is proximate to Ohio (and thus Kent State)... perhaps SRD was aware of such groups while in college and afterward...

As for the times, though young I remember quite a bit of furor over alternate religions and doomsday cults popping up all over back then and "brainwashing" people... moonies, hare-krishnas and others. My parents were involved in a congregation that they believed became cult-like during that time frame (I was baptized in that church). And who can forget the granddaddy of 'em all, the Manson "family" cult!

Its funny how nowadays nobody really worries all that much about the issue... the cult people are a bizarre punchline now, not an omnipresent threat like they were back then. I mean in the '70s, they were going to steal your children, shave their heads, and convince them to sell flowers in the airport!

[Avatar]

Of course, there was the more recent "Cult of Heaven" or something similar in Japan that got people worked up about it again for a while, but yeah, I'd have to agree that the originator of the "popular craze" about cults as it were was probably Manson.

So while the Jonestown incident might have added to it, I'm not sure we can call it the reason that Joan was in a cult.

--A

[KAY1]

There have always been fanatics of one description or another and you could say that in a sense he used the same sort of idea in TPTP when TC went to the 'Church'. Although those people weren't on the scale of the cultists in TWL and if anything simply appeared to be conmen more than anything, their followers could well have been fanatical as they believed in this seemingly great and mysterious power these people had. As a matter of interest, was it mentioned anywhere that maybe the 2 groups were connected? ie were the cultists in TWL former followers of the organisation in TPTP?
It seems to me that SRD doesn't really have much time for many 'organised religions' and perhaps this was his way of denouncing the hypocrisy he believd they represent (if he does believe that) and it was also handy for him as a method of opening up the 3rd chrons?

[KAY1]

Oops sorry of course I meant 2nd Chrons

[drew]

SRD has said many time in his Gradual Interview, that he does not knowingly take any ideas from current events (or historical events).

I know some peple have asked him if the Sunbane is supposed to be a statement about air polution, and he's said, "No."

Although; he has also stated that unconciously his ideas could have come from anywhere; so it's possible that he ws thinking about the Jonestown cult-or some other cult-when he thought up the idea of Joan being involved in one.