Ritual Of Desecration - What happened?

[KAY1]

First, if the Creator is part of the EarthPower, and Foul is his opposite...I'm sure you get what I'm saying.

Second, there's nothing to say that the Creator himself is part of, or filled with, EarthPower. Indeed, EarthPower seems to come from the Earth. The Creator may have made the Earth, but the Earth may be the originator of EarthPower.

And I don't know where the idea comes from, or even if it's true, although at first thought it seems to be. *shrug*

--A

No I don't think there is anything which specifically says the Earthpower is part of the Creator it is just my assumption really.

[Nerdanel]

I think even a Lord would be harmed by the Illearth Stone. The Stone is like the One Ring, you shouldn't use it unless you're someone like Lord Foul, period. It's the same with the Staff of Law being incompatible with beings like Lord Foul and Demondim-spawn.

Spoiler

Merely being in the proximity of the Staff of Law harms the Waynhim and would eventually kill them - even though they aren't evil.

The Last Chronicles has a lot of material relating to means and ends.

Spoiler

I think making a caesure is an innately evil deed even if it's meant to be a means to a good end.

[Avatar]

The staff is incompatible with Demondim-spawn because it is Law incarnate, while the spawn are actually corruptions of Law.

Foul could use the staff, but it was designed to strengthen Law, not attack it, and thus it was "ill-suited" to him, IIRC.

--A

[Nerdanel]

I think if Lord Foul could have used the Staff, he would have done so and not allowed a Cavewight become so powerful as to threaten him. We learn in Runes that Lord Foul is willing to do good deeds to reach evil ends. I'm sure that he could have thought up some "good" and Lawful deeds that would have helped his cause. For example, he could have increased food production for his armies. He could also have summoned white gold himself when he was ready.

[KAY1]

We know that Foul feared to use the staff because it wasn't made for his hand adn we saw what happened to Drool when he used it. Foul used Drool then used the Lords to defeat Drool before he became too powerful. Which then leads to the question what would have happened if the Lords had failed? Foul said that 'If the message fails Drool will be enthroned at Lord's Keep within 2 years and that is a cause for terror. There will be woe for high and low alike if that happens' or something along those lines.

So if Drool had succeeded could he in fact have threatened Foul? Or was Foul simply concerned because then the conditions for his release from the Arch would not be met? If Drool had obtained the Ring surely that wouldn't have been a problem as the arch would have been destroyed and he would have been free. Perhaps the Arch had to be destroyed in a certain way, or he wouldve been destroyed along with the Earth.

[Nerdanel]

I think with the Staff of Law and the Illearth Stone Drool could indeed have been too powerful for Foul to beat except in the case he got white gold somehow (and then the time itself would fall). But if Drool got white gold I don't think would have broken the Arch. I think he would have merely damaged it, considering that he wasn't wise enough not to take it by force and therefore wouldn't be able to access the full power of the ring. But I think he wouldn't need the full power anyway as he would simply steamroll over everything and triumph despite being dumb as a rock. And as Drool was betrayed by Foul into misusing the Staff of Law with the famous results that would have made him dangerous to his former "ally" once he figured out what the problem was.

[KAY1]

I'm not sure, I always thought part of the reason White Gold was able to defeat Foul - potentially, was partly because it came from outside the Land/Earth. Because everything else found within the Earth was limited by that very fact whereas there were no constraints upon White Gold. I know the banes within the Earth were capable of ravaging it, but that doesn't mean they could destroy the Arch, which was Foul's ultimate goal.

Even if Drool had won he may not have been able to correct what had happened to him and simply withered away, allowing one of the Ravers to infiltrate and then return control to the Despiser.

Of course then there is the freedom thing where as you say, if the ring wasn't freely given it wouldn't have been capable of destroying the Arch and if Drool had won the ring would NEVER have been freely given by its rightful owner.

[wayfriend]

After Kevin enacted the ROD, how did people know what happened to Kevin?

One thing we know is that he prepared very well. We also know that he kept his intent secret from the Bloodguard, and presumably anyone else. Therefore, the best guess seems to be that he put something into the first Ward which related his intentions. He would do that, I think, first because anyone would want to explain themselves. But more importantly, he designed the Wards to lead the new lords away from the Ritual, and he would have explained what he had done as a cautionary tail.

And then, Foul himself described Kevin's final moments to Covenant, who repeated it to the Council.

Other statements about Kevin's final moments before the Ritual destroyed him are stated as "legends" in the book.

Do we even know what the effects on the Land were, other than that it was desecrated and that people wouldn't survive?

• The Illearth War -- "He [Kevin] had known that the unleashing of that fell power would destroy the Lords and all their works, and ravage the Land from end to end, make it barren for generations."

We also might extrapolate what it must have been like from Trell's smaller ritual, although I think that this smaller one drew character from the mode of Trell's expression: graveling. Even allowing for that, one could imagine raising the Earthpower to ecstasies of unmitigated fury; the land would simply be scoured by a blast of power from end to end. Kevin must have hoped that such power would unknit the Despiser.

To be honest though, I think Kevin kind of missed the point. The idea was to destroy EVERYTHING and start from scratch, but by saving his Lore in the Wards as well as so many people, the Bloodguard, the Giants and Ranyhyn, there wasn't really a new beginning.

From Kevin's point of view, to what point would be the Ritual if no one survived? How would that be better than Despite's victory? Kevin would not have dared it if he did not have hope that it would succeed - that Despite would be gone and that people would return to the Land and rebuild it. Kevin's error was in thinking that Foul could be Destroyed. If he believed that, why would he worry about the form of the new beginning?

I don't think the Ritual would have worked no matter what Kevin did because if anything, Lord Foul was in a sense an expression of Earthpower which was why he was healed by it.

Foul could not be destroyed by anyone born in the Land, no matter what they did, period. That's the whole premise for summoning Covenant in the first place.

But Foul is not an expression of Earthpower. He surpasses Earthpower, he can bend it to his will, make it serve him, heal him, he can corrupt it -- but he is not Earthpower. This is why the Elohim, the Earthblood, the Earth itself, are effectless against eradicating him.

I think if Lord Foul could have used the Staff, he would have done so and not allowed a Cavewight become so powerful as to threaten him.

IMO Foul could have used the Staff any time that he wanted to. He chose to let Drool, then dead Elena, weild it because that served his purposes better. If Foul had not let Drool have the Staff, the Lords would not have recovered it, and ultimately the Law of Death would not have been broken. If he had not let dead Elena have the Staff, then it might not ever have been destroyed by white gold. Foul is a manipulator, he does his best work by manipulating rather than taking a direct hand. It allows him, among other things, to create situations where the defenders of the Land destroy that which they love, breeding despair. Like anyone else, Foul articulates his power in the way that is most apt for him.

I don't think it is ever stated that Foul could not use the staff. Rather, some characters have speculated.

• Lord Foul's Bane -- "But Lord Foul the Despiser learned of Drool's discovery, and agreed for his own purposes to teach the Cavewight the uses of the Staff. Clearly he did not wrest the Staff from Drool. Perhaps he was too weak. Or perhaps he feared to use a tool not made for his hand. Or perhaps he has some terrible purpose which we do not grasp."

I bet that some terrible purpose is the correct answer.

[Warmark]

I think i've said this somewhere else but anyway :
I think they ROD would be personal to the power weilded by the desecrator.

For Example, Trell was a very powerful gravlingas and so used fire and such for his desecration, therefore i think Kevins would have been something to do with Lords Fire, perhaps a great expulsion of Blue flame?

[KAY1]

i dont so much mean Foul is less than the Earthpower, merely that if my theory is correct and Earthpower is part of the essence of the Creator, then it is logical that it is also part of Foul as they may even be opposite parts of the same being.

As far as his 'terrible purpose' went, I just assume the purpose was to get Drool to summon Covenant and then go from there.

I have no doubt he could have used the staff but it would have been an unwilling tool in his hands and Drool performing the summoning also made more sense as Covenant would not leave the Land until his summoner died, whch would have made things a bit awkward if Foul had been the summoner.

[High Lord Tolkien]

i dont so much mean Foul is less than the Earthpower, merely that if my theory is correct and Earthpower is part of the essence of the Creator, then it is logical that it is also part of Foul as they may even be opposite parts of the same being.

Why would earthpower be part of the essence of the Creator?
If I make/create clothes that doesn't mean a part on me is clothing.
I like the idea that Earthpower is something he made for his children's enjoyment.
BUt who are the Children of the Creator?
The Elohim (which would throw my idea out the window) or the Stars themselves?

[Guest]

I absolutely and totally agree that all power is morally neutral, and that only it's use determines it's nature though.

Perhaps in the real world this is true. Fiction, however, is another story (no pun intended). The Illearth Stone overpowers and corrupts everything it touches, until the apotheosis with the Wild Magic. Even Foul had a penumbra of green ill around him, perhaps further corrupting an already supremely malignant spirit. IMO, he is able to survive the effects of the Stone not only because of his inherent evil, but in large part because he is outside of the Law of the Earth.

The One Ring corrupts. The Council of the Wise knew this, and refused the Ring, even knowing that their initial intent would be to do "good". Because it was made with a large portion of Sauron's own power and spirit, he is the only one apt to use it without losing himself after extended possession of the thing. Among mortals, Sam, Frodo, and Bilbo are the only ones who possess and use the Ring for any period of time and actually manage to save their essential being. Frodo is only saved by the destruction of the Ring...he had lost the battle and needed Gollum's insanity to save him. And Bilbo would surely have been lost if not for the meddling of a certain Wizard.

The inherent nature of these banes is to spread evil.

[KAY1]

i dont so much mean Foul is less than the Earthpower, merely that if my theory is correct and Earthpower is part of the essence of the Creator, then it is logical that it is also part of Foul as they may even be opposite parts of the same being.

Why would earthpower be part of the essence of the Creator?
If I make/create clothes that doesn't mean a part on me is clothing.
I like the idea that Earthpower is something he made for his children's enjoyment.
BUt who are the Children of the Creator?
The Elohim (which would throw my idea out the window) or the Stars themselves?

I am not saying that this is correct, I am simply saying this is my theory, which could of course be totally wrong.

My theory is based on a few things. Firstly the Earth is living, it isn't like clothes or something, it has a life of it's own, almost like a child itself. With this in mind, we do of course pass on part of ourselves to our children. If the Elohim are in fact children of the Creator then this supports it even more as the Elohim are Earthpower incarnate which would make them siblings with the Earth!

I see Foul as the Creator's brother perhaps or as speculated in the Chrons the darker side of himself. So based on the above assumptions, Earthpower could be some part of the Creator (perhaps it is translated into Earthpower on Earth) and as his Brother/other half Foul would also share in this which is why the Earthpower could heal him. Also, if the banes are 'negative' expressions of Earthpower, it would explain why Foul could apparently use things like the Illearth Stone with impunity.

Just my theory anyway, it doesn't have to be true.

[Avatar]

Do we even know what the effects on the Land were, other than that it was desecrated and that people wouldn't survive?

• The Illearth War -- "He [Kevin] had known that the unleashing of that fell power would destroy the Lords and all their works, and ravage the Land from end to end, make it barren for generations."

We also might extrapolate what it must have been like from Trell's smaller ritual, although I think that this smaller one drew character from the mode of Trell's expression: graveling. Even allowing for that, one could imagine raising the Earthpower to ecstasies of unmitigated fury; the land would simply be scoured by a blast of power from end to end. Kevin must have hoped that such power would unknit the Despiser.

Yeah, that makes sense to me. I certainly agree that Trell's experience was an outgrowth of his own knowledge and skill, as expressed by the fire of graveling. I don't think it means that any Ritual of Desecration would necessarily share that form.

I like WarMarks idea of a massive outpouring of Lords Fire, bursting up through the land though.

Hmmm, interesting point about the elohim Kay, if they are EarthPower incarnate, and they pre-date the earth...maybe they are the source of EarthPower. I don't see the Creator as being EarthPowerful, any more than I see Foul as being reliant on/part of it though.

--A

[KAY1]

I can't really remember the whole story about the Elohim and the Creation etc, I just remember there were a few variations in the story. I also can't exactly remember the bit when we hear that Foul was preserved from the Ritual by the Earthpower itself as it was the only thing that had poer to heal him. I think that's how it goes. From that I can only assume that there has to be something Earthpowerful (even if in a negative sense) about him in order for the Earthpower to have an effect on him. I am not saying that the Creator contains Earthpower in the sense known in the Land, but that when he made the Earth and all it's wonders some sense of his own power was translated from it's form in the cosmos to how we understand Earthpower. I'm sure it was said somewhere about how the Creator placed great power within the Earth (then Foul misguided his hand, or interfered in another way to place banes in the Earth) and surely this must have come from somewhere? Surely it isn't so far fetched to think that the power was similar, or came from in part, his own power? As Foul was possibly transformed a little from his original form/essence by being within the Arch, perhaps he became more 'in tune' with the Earthpower in the form we know so he could draw on it. He was reduced by an expression of Earthpower (the Ritual) but could not be destroyed by it and was then healed by it to a degree, but could not use the Earthpower to make himself powerful enough to break free.

I am just confusing myself now really lol

[Sunbaneglasses]

Perhaps Kevin activated much of the earth of The Land into something akin to Gravling?

[Avatar]

If you've read Runes Kay, check out WayFriends excellent Reading Runes: A tale of two comologies thread in the Runes forum.

Maybe, SBG, but Kevin wasn't a gravelingas like Trell...

(Do we know if the Stonedownors and Woodhelvinin predate the Ritual? Or did their lore only arise out of the renewal of the Land?

IIRC, they only became "specialists" after returning.)

--A

[wayfriend]

Stonedowners and Woodhelven are the result of the Desecration. Each managed to save only a small aspect of their lore.

[Atiaran said]"We do not use wood because the wood-lore, the lillianrill, is lost to us, and we have not sought to regain it. In the exile of our people, when Desolation was upon the Land, many precious things were lost. Our people clung to the rhadhamaerl lore in the Southron Range and the Wastes, and it enabled us to endure. The wood-lore seemed not to help us, and it was forgotten. Now that we have returned to the Land, the stone-lore suffices for us. But others have kept the lillianrill. I have seen Soaring Woodhelven, in the hills far north and east of us, and it is a fair place-their people understand wood, and flourish. There is some trade between Stonedown and Woodhelven, but wood and stone are not traded."

It seems to me that, before the Descration, different kinds of lore were dispersed more thooughout the people. It was probably true that a particular person chose a certain specialty, but it probably wasn't true that villiages were divided along those lines.

[KAY1]

Yes I think Atiaran also said that the people of the land used to openly trade in precious metals with the Cavewights, so before the Desecration everything seemed less specialised than afterwards. You can understand though in the Wastes and mountains that wood lore wouldn't be a great help. Did it mention how far the effects spread as obviously the Forests survived where you would be forgiven for thinking they would have been destroyed. I remember in TIW the Forestal says 'We do not know Lords, but we know men, the Ritual of Desecreation is not forgotten in the Deep'. I take that to mean that the Ritual did affect the forests but that their innate power and/or the assistance of the Forestal(s) preserved them. I only mention because I wonder where those who kept the wood-lore went. Even the Giants had to sail away, so I guess that means the entire Land was affected. I wonder how Kevin kept the destruction focussed solely on the Land.

Yes Avatar I have read Runes (though I think time for a re-read) sO I will have a looky.

[Nerdanel]

Where was I again...? It seems I've been composing this reply in another window forever. Well...

As Kevin was a seer, I think it was with him and his Wards as with Baradakas and the staff he made not knowing why. Kevin would have done most of the work with his Wards on a vague feeling that Wards would eventually come in handy. If my more dangerous theory is correct about Melenkurion and friends, perhaps the Seven Words of Power were a finishing touch Kevin put in shortly before the end, in its incomplete and safe form. Perhaps even the seventh words was there, at the last pages meant for those who would be wise enough not to use it except in the direst extremity, or perhaps Kevin figured that if people needed it, they would invent it themselves.

But like Baradakas gave his staff to Covenant (who ended up needing it much later, but could have used Tamarantha's instead) while he should probably have kept it for himself and with its additional power kept Soaring Woodhelven from being burned (which Birinair said was a close thing as it was) and given it afterwards to Covenant if he didn't accept Tamaratha's staff without his pre-existing alternative (while Covenant probably should have taken her staff anyway), Kevin could not use his prescience to make the decisions that would have made the best sense in retrospect, only decisions that made sense in the limited context of what he saw. (Whew! Was that one sentence?) In addition, if he was like Mhoram, Kevin would have lost his second sight when he learned the secret of the Ritual of Desecration. Although, I suspect Kevin may have thought of it as the Ritual of Cleansing, if Lord Kevin's Lament is accurate in the way Lord Mhoram's Victory by Ahanna daughter of Hanna is.

Why will the very rocks not erupt
for their own cleansing,
or crumble into dust for shame?

I think it's important to remember that the Ritual of Desecration took place in Kiril Threndor, the heart of Mount Thunder, an active volcano that just happened to be controlled by some of Kevin's more powerful enemies, the Demondim. Not the most convenient of places unless the Demondim were feeling suicidal, which is always a possibility for beings who loathed their own forms.

It's also important to remember that Kevin and Lord Foul spoke the ritual together. Mount Thunder is about an equal distance from their homes, so a Desecration centered there wouldn't give an undue advantage to either party, particularly if Lord Foul wasn't sure of the Demondim's loyalty. Mount Thunder was also in the center of the Land, so if the Desecration spread from there about circularly, the whole Land would have been covered in a simple, though power-intensive, manner.

I think a Ritual of Desecration involves letting violently loose the most destructive aspects of the Earth. As a volcano Mount Thunder had inherently far more capability for havoc than a random piece of ground. It is only natural for Kevin to use the power of the nature. I don't think he could have made enough Lords-fire for an effective Desecration, or at least as he wanted to tap into maximum power for maximum destruction, he would have done something else. Think for example how the New Lords arranged the Word of Warning in Doom's Retreat. The real destructiveness of the spell came from triggering the inherent destructive potential of the gorge and couldn't have been done in just any place. I think making Mount Thunder erupt with a supernatural force was the biggest thing Kevin could think of.