Excellent points indeed. I certainly agree that he wouldn't appear more than once to anybody of course, but I really like your explanation.
--A
The Creator's Non-Appearance
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wayfriend
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The only thing that bothers me about any supposed "new chosen one" theories is that Donaldson normally writes his stories about those people. People who go to the Land deal and grow and resolve, and as an author you you have to show that in detail for it to happen at all.
We've finished 25% of [edit] the Final Chrons and Donaldson has not expended any effort really to have Lytton, Sandy, Roger, Joan, or even Jeremiah as a main protagonist. They've all been treated as secondary or even tertiary characters so far - we've learned more about Liand and Stave than any of those candidates.
It may be that there is not another chosen this time. Who says there needs to be? Aren't two main protagonists sufficient?
Maybe SRD's oblique hinting is that the Creator can no longer choose anyone any more. The fragility of the Law forbids.
We've finished 25% of [edit] the Final Chrons and Donaldson has not expended any effort really to have Lytton, Sandy, Roger, Joan, or even Jeremiah as a main protagonist. They've all been treated as secondary or even tertiary characters so far - we've learned more about Liand and Stave than any of those candidates.
It may be that there is not another chosen this time. Who says there needs to be? Aren't two main protagonists sufficient?
Maybe SRD's oblique hinting is that the Creator can no longer choose anyone any more. The fragility of the Law forbids.
Last edited by wayfriend on Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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I think Lytton and his crew would probably already had to be on their way there when they noticed the burning house. After the lightning strikes the house the whole place starts going up in flames like a tinderbox, so that when Linden first smells smoke it's already too late to run to the front door. So after having spent maybe five minutes inside Linden breaks the window, jumps out, and runs through the forest straight to the clearing as fast as she can. Then she exchanges some words with Roger (we might playact everyone's lines aloud to check how long it takes, but it isn't that long) and Lytton turns up with all his men. At the very least, Lytton already had to be in Haven Farm's general vicinity or otherwise he wouldn't have made it.
Of course, it may be that Lytton is there not because of a weird old man but because he decided to listen to Linden's intuition (voiced in their second conversation in the book) instead of being pig-headed yet again. If this is the case, I'm thinking Lytton will find a lot of character growth in the later books. He reminds me of a redneck version of Hile Troy actually...
Of course, it may be that Lytton is there not because of a weird old man but because he decided to listen to Linden's intuition (voiced in their second conversation in the book) instead of being pig-headed yet again. If this is the case, I'm thinking Lytton will find a lot of character growth in the later books. He reminds me of a redneck version of Hile Troy actually...
He reminds me of a redneck version of Castellan Lebbick. Who knows what traumatic history SRD will come up with for him? 
Heck, maybe the Creator showed up to speak to Joan 10 years ago, during the ride back from Haven Farm, and that's the catalyst for what really happened to Joan back then. Lytton's been trying to figure it out for all this time...
I also agree it may not make sense to introduce a new "Chosen one" ... but if so, likely it would be among Joan, Roger, or Jeremiah. SRD did say something in the GI about the importance of children. Still, Lytton could become an important player.
Heck, maybe the Creator showed up to speak to Joan 10 years ago, during the ride back from Haven Farm, and that's the catalyst for what really happened to Joan back then. Lytton's been trying to figure it out for all this time...
I also agree it may not make sense to introduce a new "Chosen one" ... but if so, likely it would be among Joan, Roger, or Jeremiah. SRD did say something in the GI about the importance of children. Still, Lytton could become an important player.
"History is a myth men have agreed upon." - Napoleon
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drew
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I'm pretty sure there's a quote in Runes that sums it up that Lytton and Sandy won't be there.
How many of the clan members made it to the Land when TC was summoned in TWL?
-None.
Just because you're in the vicinity, I don't think it means you have ot go to the Land.
The little Rattlesnake girl didn't go either in TPTP.
I dodn't think that The Chroncles of THOMAS COVENANT needs a new protaganist; even though he was behing the scenes in Runes, he was still talked about on nearly every page, and judging by the last line, he's going ot be quite prodominant in the rest of the series
How many of the clan members made it to the Land when TC was summoned in TWL?
-None.
Just because you're in the vicinity, I don't think it means you have ot go to the Land.
The little Rattlesnake girl didn't go either in TPTP.
I dodn't think that The Chroncles of THOMAS COVENANT needs a new protaganist; even though he was behing the scenes in Runes, he was still talked about on nearly every page, and judging by the last line, he's going ot be quite prodominant in the rest of the series
I thought you were a ripe grape
a cabernet sauvignon
a bottle in the cellar
the kind you keep for a really long time
a cabernet sauvignon
a bottle in the cellar
the kind you keep for a really long time
The First Chronicles summoning uses a different method than the later ones and I think might not even had the theoretical capability to summon more than one person at once. I think it can't be compared too closely with the rituals seen in the later instalments.
Among the things the Second and Last Chronicles summonings have in common is the enclosed area. TWL has the triangle of blood. Runes has the circle of lightning and also a circle of gunfire. I'm sure Lord Foul wouldn't have wasted who knows how much energy making lightning behave highly unnaturally if it was mere decoration. Note also that the circle is there even when Linden arrives and later doesn't stop Lytton from going through it, so it is completely ineffective and wasteful as a barrier if it's meant to be that.
Then Lytton got shot unconscious by Roger, so the sheriff should be in just the right condition for a summoning. Of all the people in the circle, Sandy is the only one who MIGHT avoid getting summoned, I think, but she's been hurt too, and there are bullets flying all over the place...
Among the things the Second and Last Chronicles summonings have in common is the enclosed area. TWL has the triangle of blood. Runes has the circle of lightning and also a circle of gunfire. I'm sure Lord Foul wouldn't have wasted who knows how much energy making lightning behave highly unnaturally if it was mere decoration. Note also that the circle is there even when Linden arrives and later doesn't stop Lytton from going through it, so it is completely ineffective and wasteful as a barrier if it's meant to be that.
Then Lytton got shot unconscious by Roger, so the sheriff should be in just the right condition for a summoning. Of all the people in the circle, Sandy is the only one who MIGHT avoid getting summoned, I think, but she's been hurt too, and there are bullets flying all over the place...
As I think in the Last Chronicles a lot of things from the past books are going to be repeated or duplicated - with a twist, of course - I think we're going to see a repeat of Hile Troy and probably the alternate POV too. (The subject of things repeating is worth a thread of its own, so no more of that here.)
In certain ways, Lytton is a lot like Troy. Both are charismatic leaders (which is how Lytton keeps getting elected). Both have a somewhat "military-minded" approach to things. Both hate Covenant. Troy is blind in actuality while Lytton is blinded by his prejudices. I would say Lytton is a second-rate Troy to fit with the diminishment of the Land.
In certain ways, Lytton is a lot like Troy. Both are charismatic leaders (which is how Lytton keeps getting elected). Both have a somewhat "military-minded" approach to things. Both hate Covenant. Troy is blind in actuality while Lytton is blinded by his prejudices. I would say Lytton is a second-rate Troy to fit with the diminishment of the Land.
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drew
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I can see you rpoint, but there's this line in Runes...
Barton Lytton had probably survived. And Sandy Eastwall might live still. prostrate, they had sprawled below the wild gunfire. They had no part in this.
I thought you were a ripe grape
a cabernet sauvignon
a bottle in the cellar
the kind you keep for a really long time
a cabernet sauvignon
a bottle in the cellar
the kind you keep for a really long time
But SRD writes in close third person, not omniscient narrator, as he has more than once said in the GI. Everything in Runes is from Linden's POV. If she doesn't see it, hear it, feel it, smell it, taste it, or think about it, it isn't in the text. All we can do is to be more attentive than she is, but otherwise we learn nothing that she doesn't.
Linden simply has no way to know what happened to Sandy and Lytton. We know that this time people summoned at once ended up in different places in the Land. Sandy and Lytton might simply have ended in some other part of the Land, with Roger or not. So the sentence is only describing Linden's thought processes: she SUPPOSES Sandy and Lytton aren't in the Land, but it wouldn't be the first time she was wrong.
Linden simply has no way to know what happened to Sandy and Lytton. We know that this time people summoned at once ended up in different places in the Land. Sandy and Lytton might simply have ended in some other part of the Land, with Roger or not. So the sentence is only describing Linden's thought processes: she SUPPOSES Sandy and Lytton aren't in the Land, but it wouldn't be the first time she was wrong.
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wayfriend
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This seems to follow the thoery that someone chosen by the Creator to enter the land would be a central POV character. Because if they were so chosen then the Land would, in a sense, exist for them.In the Gradual Interview was wrote:... the story has left the whole issue of "reality" (is-it-or-isn't-it) far behind. But everything that I'm doing is still built on the foundation of Covenant's dilemmas and attitudes: Covenant's mind (his "psychodrama," if you will) provides the basis, the essential presuppositions, for everything that I've constructed since the first chapter of "Lord Foul's Bane." In "The Second Chronicles," I *think* I succeeded at expanding the foundation to include Linden's mind/heart/journey. But she and Covenant remain the only characters who really do provide a foundation. Troy doesn't count because a) he completely accepts the Land "as is" with little or no emotional baggage, apart from his inclination to repeat Kevin's mistakes (so in that sense he "reflects" the Land, he doesn't "generate" it, if you see what I mean), and b) he isn't in the story long enough to carry the narrative weight that Linden and Covenant do. And people like Roger and Joan don't count simply because they aren't POV characters: they don't provide the mind(s) through which the reality of the Land is created.
Beneath the surface--OK, perhaps *far* beneath the surface--it remains true that we can't have the Land without Covenant and/or Linden.
(03/17/2006)
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I think I agree with you, Wayfriend... while this would rule out the possibility that the old man appeared to any other non-POV character, this does not rule out the possibility that other non-POV characters DID enter the Land.
However, the more I re-read Runes, the more I feel there's something between the Creator and Jeremiah. For instance - how did Jeremiah know about what Revelstone and Mt. Thunder look like? Why did he choose those two particular examples, and not, say, Coercri or Mithil Stonedown?
In a way, it feels as if Jeremiah gave the warning to Linden in place of the Creator. I don't agree with the theory that says the Creator "incarnated" in Jeremiah, but I do feel there's a link between the two - or at least, between the Creator's failure to appear and Jeremiah, even beyond the "no more than one appearance per person" rule.
However, the more I re-read Runes, the more I feel there's something between the Creator and Jeremiah. For instance - how did Jeremiah know about what Revelstone and Mt. Thunder look like? Why did he choose those two particular examples, and not, say, Coercri or Mithil Stonedown?
In a way, it feels as if Jeremiah gave the warning to Linden in place of the Creator. I don't agree with the theory that says the Creator "incarnated" in Jeremiah, but I do feel there's a link between the two - or at least, between the Creator's failure to appear and Jeremiah, even beyond the "no more than one appearance per person" rule.
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drew
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Or possibly a link between Coveneant and Jeramiah.
Perhaps that's why Linden loves Jerry so much, he's conencted with Covenant, in the Land-the place where she fell n love with him.
That could be why the FIRST thing he build was the Arch of time, becasue that's what TC guards.
Later when TC knew LInden was coming to the Land again, he got JErry to give he two signs-Revelstone and Mount THunder--the two most powerfull places that she knows of in the Land.
The Real time that TC and Linden spent in the Land during the 2nd chrons was only a couple of hours, so for TC to slightly posses Jerry is certainly plausable, the same way Joan was possed After everything happened.
-just a theroy.
Perhaps that's why Linden loves Jerry so much, he's conencted with Covenant, in the Land-the place where she fell n love with him.
That could be why the FIRST thing he build was the Arch of time, becasue that's what TC guards.
Later when TC knew LInden was coming to the Land again, he got JErry to give he two signs-Revelstone and Mount THunder--the two most powerfull places that she knows of in the Land.
The Real time that TC and Linden spent in the Land during the 2nd chrons was only a couple of hours, so for TC to slightly posses Jerry is certainly plausable, the same way Joan was possed After everything happened.
-just a theroy.
I thought you were a ripe grape
a cabernet sauvignon
a bottle in the cellar
the kind you keep for a really long time
a cabernet sauvignon
a bottle in the cellar
the kind you keep for a really long time
Another quote along the lines of "They had no part in this":
I think there are hints enough to suspect that Jeremiah indeed has mystical powers of some sort. This showcases that Linden's POV isn't always trustworthy in these things and Sandy and Lytton could indeed turn out to have some part in this.Jeremiah had no worth in himself: no power, no ring. ... Jeremiah's only value was to Linden herself
Nerdanel, I'm afraid that in my re-reading of Runes I've noticed that there's a strong possibility neither Lytton nor Sandy entered the Land.
First of all, Lytton. According to the Runes paperback, when he gets to the hollow, he approaches the scorched ground that marks the "summoning circle" but does not enter the circle, and does all his talking from outside it; when Roger shoots him, he also falls backwards, so he falls even more outside of the circle. If he's not in the circle, chances are he's not transported to the Land.
Now Sandy. Here the evidence is a bit more shaky, but I think it's compelling anyway. First of all, there's Roger and Linden's exchange about her wounded hand: Roger strongly implies that blood is required for the transition, and therefore, that Linden, being bleeding AND inside the circle, will go to the Land. He, of course, is shot while within the circle, so his blood also can serve to enter the Land. And he was still holding Jeremiah, who might have been brought into the Land in Roger's wake, given their physical link while Roger was translated.
But Sandy was released from Roger's hand and, as far as we know she wasn't shot or wounded, except for maybe a small concussion when Roger hits her on the head to make her keep silent. She doesn't bleed, and she's not touching anyone among those who are being translated to the Land. So, it's very likely she was not transported to the Land either.
I would also hazard a guess and say that it is likely that people who are touching each other during the summoning end up together. So, Roger and Jeremiah were summoned together (presumably in Foul's demesne), while Linden was summoned on Kevin's Watch. Had Sandy been touching Linden, for example, she might have been translated on Kevin's Watch with her.
First of all, Lytton. According to the Runes paperback, when he gets to the hollow, he approaches the scorched ground that marks the "summoning circle" but does not enter the circle, and does all his talking from outside it; when Roger shoots him, he also falls backwards, so he falls even more outside of the circle. If he's not in the circle, chances are he's not transported to the Land.
Now Sandy. Here the evidence is a bit more shaky, but I think it's compelling anyway. First of all, there's Roger and Linden's exchange about her wounded hand: Roger strongly implies that blood is required for the transition, and therefore, that Linden, being bleeding AND inside the circle, will go to the Land. He, of course, is shot while within the circle, so his blood also can serve to enter the Land. And he was still holding Jeremiah, who might have been brought into the Land in Roger's wake, given their physical link while Roger was translated.
But Sandy was released from Roger's hand and, as far as we know she wasn't shot or wounded, except for maybe a small concussion when Roger hits her on the head to make her keep silent. She doesn't bleed, and she's not touching anyone among those who are being translated to the Land. So, it's very likely she was not transported to the Land either.
I would also hazard a guess and say that it is likely that people who are touching each other during the summoning end up together. So, Roger and Jeremiah were summoned together (presumably in Foul's demesne), while Linden was summoned on Kevin's Watch. Had Sandy been touching Linden, for example, she might have been translated on Kevin's Watch with her.
thoughts
"I think that if he appeared to anyone it will be Linden's pup. Jeremiah has an abilty to build things, just Linden ability to cure things in the SC. This ability will come into play and save the day."
/tangent/ Maybe Jeremiahs place is to fit the parts of the arch of time back together.
also, if the arch is already fragmented, maybe the creator has a way of reaching through it, maybe he's dead and is using the laws of life and death to cross through.
/tangent/ Maybe Jeremiahs place is to fit the parts of the arch of time back together.
also, if the arch is already fragmented, maybe the creator has a way of reaching through it, maybe he's dead and is using the laws of life and death to cross through.
Re: thoughts
The Arch is not fragmented, otherwise the Land would have come to an end. I'd say that the Arch is just punched full of holes at the momentlikuidice wrote:"I think that if he appeared to anyone it will be Linden's pup. Jeremiah has an abilty to build things, just Linden ability to cure things in the SC. This ability will come into play and save the day."
/tangent/ Maybe Jeremiahs place is to fit the parts of the arch of time back together.
also, if the arch is already fragmented, maybe the creator has a way of reaching through it, maybe he's dead and is using the laws of life and death to cross through.
But I don't think the Creator can enter it. Until the Arch falls, the Law of Time still prevents him.