OK, so the Land's real. So how....

[Skyweir]

yes and if TCTC is all an invention of LA's subconscious .. what an elaborate invention indeed

she created a diverse and complex scenario long before and in preparation of her own involvement in her fantasy ..

LOL ..

again .. difficult to substantiate

[KaosArcana]

Skyweir:

as for those things Kaos raises .. there is no inconsistency addressed .. TC may have his clothing torn asunder in the Land but when he returned he will assume the physical state he last left .. er go .. clothed.

Except he's wearing a hospital robe when he wakes up and is given
his clothes back when he leaves the hospital... so he's not assuming the
physical state he had when he left because he's wearing a different
outfit.

.... hey, maybe the Land is actually the dream of Covenant's boots!
We don't know that he's not wearing the same tough boots in both
series ....

[Fist and Faith]

Or the dreamer is the ring. And Mhoram finally figured out what was at the core of it all, so when he said, "You are the white gold" he was talking to the ring!!


Sky, I don't suggest that SRD doesn't have a handle on it, just that he isn't concerned with whether or not the Land is real by Covenant's standards. Or whether any of us believe one way or another. It doesn't matter. He just wants us to all think that In reality as in dreams, what matters is the answer we find in our hearts to the test of Despite.

As for Troy, I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean that I cannot have a dream that does not include myself as a character? But that doesn't matter anymore. If Linden woke up with the ring in her hand, then the Land is real.

Unless I get REALLY carried away, and say that Covenant is writing a book about his fictional adventures in a place called the Land, and the second part of these chronicles includes a woman named Linden. So then Covenant would be at his desk, typing things like, "Then she woke up, in the 'real' world."

[Skyweir]

Or the dreamer is the ring. And Mhoram finally figured out what was at the core of it all, so when he said, "You are the white gold" he was talking to the ring!!

LOL .. its tuff finding an alternative explanation to the reality theory eh?? LOL

Sky, I don't suggest that SRD doesn't have a handle on it, just that he isn't concerned with whether or not the Land is real by Covenant's standards. Or whether any of us believe one way or another. It doesn't matter. He just wants us to all think that In reality as in dreams, what matters is the answer we find in our hearts to the test of Despite.

I agree! I think SRD clearly knows what he intends the dynamics to be .. but i think he isnt going to answer a pivotal question .. that the audience must reach themselves .. It would spoil the very heart of his plot-lines to give away the most critical part ..

As for Troy, I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean that I cannot have a dream that does not include myself as a character?

no i am not saying that but as you say HT is irrelevant as he cant be proved or disproved .. and anyway .. as you say ...

But that doesn't matter anymore. If Linden woke up with the ring in her hand, then the Land is real.

Unless I get REALLY carried away, and say that Covenant is writing a book about his fictional adventures in a place called the Land, and the second part of these chronicles includes a woman named Linden. So then Covenant would be at his desk, typing things like, "Then she woke up, in the 'real' world."

ahh ..thats not a bad scenario .. this one at least would hold water

[Skyweir]

oh and kaos .. TC's physical state was altered by others in his world reality .. so waking up in a hospital gown .. is not imho an inconsistency

TC's .. actual and real clothes remained .. albeit moved to another location - presumably a hospital locker .. but they were there .. thus the chain/his physical world state retaining its material integrity and intactness imo ..

[Fist and Faith]

Unless I get REALLY carried away, and say that Covenant is writing a book about his fictional adventures in a place called the Land, and the second part of these chronicles includes a woman named Linden. So then Covenant would be at his desk, typing things like, "Then she woke up, in the 'real' world."

ahh ..thats not a bad scenario .. this one at least would hold water

Moreso than either the dream or real scenarios.

The dream works with just the 1st Chronicles. (Dreaming when he's in the Land, embellishing and fantasizing when he's in the real world.) But I was stretching things whenever I tried to explain the 2nd as a dream. And that was before I was reminded that Linden has the ring in the real world.

As for "it's real," well, I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how this guy from one reality turns out to be the keystone to this other reality.

[Furls Fire]

Personally, I kind of like "not" knowing for sure. It adds to the whole "magic" of the story. I like the mystery, and the what ifs, and the how's. He really is an amazing author. He has spun this so beautifully. I don't know if I really want the questions answered. This is fantasy at it's best. It's fantastic. It's illusion. It's altered states. It's amazing possibility. It's magic.

[Fist and Faith]

He ain't half bad!

[Furls Fire]

I'll tell him you said that at Elohimfest.

[Fist and Faith]

I just want to ask him what the hell "unambergrised" means!!

[Furls Fire]

He does love them big words...

[Skyweir]

As for "it's real," well, I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how this guy from one reality turns out to be the keystone to this other reality.

ok .. lets look at what the keystone is? and what it this keystone a keystone of?

the AoT .. right? something temporal presumably .. which protects time .. time .. time being intergral to the concept of existence ..

We are told that the keystone to the AoT is white gold/wild magic .. this substance which is foreign to this world .. if not then Foul would have been better served excavating for white gold than spending his thousands of years existence twiddling his thumbs inciting desecrations and making a nuisance of himself ..

Clearly a creator would not place in an earth of his make the very substance that would destroy his work ..

So how does TC being most amazingly 'white gold' himself .. make it difficult to accept his being the same substance of the keystone to the AoT?

[Fist and Faith]

***SPOILER ALERT***



Let's see here.

First he built the Arch of Time, so that his creation would have a place in which to be - and for the keystone of that arch, he forged the wild magic, so that Time would be able to resist chaos and endure.

So then the Creator forged Covenant? Of course, in Leper's End, he tells Covenant, "I elected you for the Land..." So he could have elected another? He created others who were also wild magic, and could have placed themselves between Foul and the Arch at the end of WGW?

[Furls Fire]

hmmm, Covenant didn't actually become the keystone to the Arch until Foul started blasting him with his own power at the end of WGW. Altho, Mhoram tells him in TPTP that "you are the white gold." I did not take that statement to mean that he could use the wild magic without the ring, only that it meant that Covenant didn't need a trigger like he always thought he did.

Covenant and the wild magic were seperate until he gave himself that caamora in the Banefire. When he emerged from the banefire he was an "alloy" he called it. Wild magic and Venom. But, he still wasn't the keystone to the Arch. Because the wild magic was poisoned. It was only when Foul attacked him, only after he "died" with his own power did he become the keystone. Foul burned the venom away, thus ridding Covenant of the poison. So now, Covenant is completely wild magic. He no longer needs the ring, thus, he is now the keystone.

Am I making sense??? probably not...it's still early

[Skyweir]

So then the Creator forged Covenant? Of course, in Leper's End, he tells Covenant, "I elected you for the Land..." So he could have elected another? He created others who were also wild magic, and could have placed themselves between Foul and the Arch at the end of WGW?

perhaps .. but being elected for his purposes .. doesnt infer that TC was forged by the Creator .. or even that TC is of the Creator's make

as far as electing another?? I dont know about that .. that is an interesting question

as Furls explains really well .. that TC becomes the keystone after some forging of his own .. I think this may have played a part in his becoming refered to as the keystone ..

can anyone remember and cite a reference to this new status for TC? his being the keystone?

I would like to revisit that assertion .. and see if there are any clues there ..

TC being from our world .. I dont believe he was a product of the Creator's .. He used someone outside of his creation to act as a tool .. risking all in this one alien to his world ..

[Fist and Faith]

OK, here's the best I can come up with. Maybe Covenant wasn't the only wild magic. The Arch had wild magic as its keystone, but that doesn't mean there is no wild magic anywhere in any other reality. Covenant was a separate bit of it. Maybe the Creator saw it in other realities, realized it would suit his purpose - that it would keep his Arch or Time safe from chaos - so he forged some of his own.

Eh? Eh?

And then, in his rage, he threw Despite in, and saw how it threatened his creation. He knew that wild magic was the only thing that could defeat Foul, even if only temporarily, and he found someone who was able to wield it.

[Skyweir]

OK, here's the best I can come up with. Maybe Covenant wasn't the only wild magic. The Arch had wild magic as its keystone, but that doesn't mean there is no wild magic anywhere in any other reality. Covenant was a separate bit of it. Maybe the Creator saw it in other realities, realized it would suit his purpose - that it would keep his Arch or Time safe from chaos - so he forged some of his own.

most assuredly there was an abundance of white gold in our world .. and no doubt TC was not the only white gold ring bearer either .. but i think TC was chosen for more than that .. for his particular qualities and as the Creator said to TC at the end of TPTP's .. he was accustomed with despair .. there wouldn't be as many folk who had endured what TC had .. in contracting leperosy and losing all he valued most .. Sure many others in this world suffer .. and greatly .. but TC possessed something particular that complimented the Creators needs and that of possessing the token ring .

I dont think TC was a seperate bit of the AoT .. but it could turn out that way .. and would surely explain why TC and none other .. but in my mind now .. I see TC as being soley from another world .. not a piece of the Creator's world .. or even the AoT ..

And then, in his rage, he threw Despite in, and saw how it threatened his creation. He knew that wild magic was the only thing that could defeat Foul, even if only temporarily, and he found someone who was able to wield it.

well this would make for a very petty and evil creator imo .. to play such cruel games with his own creation .. his own children so to speak ..

It is interesting how exactly the Creator did come upon TC located far from his creation .. and on a different world entirely ..

unless there is some relationship between TC and berek .. that has always been a current questionable theme ..

[Fist and Faith]

most assuredly there was an abundance of white gold in our world .. and no doubt TC was not the only white gold ring bearer either .. but i think TC was chosen for more than that .. for his particular qualities and as the Creator said to TC at the end of TPTP's .. he was accustomed with despair .. there wouldn't be as many folk who had endured what TC had .. in contracting leperosy and losing all he valued most .. Sure many others in this world suffer .. and greatly .. but TC possessed something particular that complimented the Creators needs and that of possessing the token ring .

I agree with all.

I dont think TC was a seperate bit of the AoT .. but it could turn out that way .. and would surely explain why TC and none other .. but in my mind now .. I see TC as being soley from another world .. not a piece of the Creator's world .. or even the AoT ..

Well, either the Creator created Covenant, or he didn't. Either he put various WGW's around, hoping that one or more would develop the qualities that were needed, and chose Covenant - or the Creator had nothing to do with Covenant's existence. Personally, I think the latter.

And then, in his rage, he threw Despite in, and saw how it threatened his creation. He knew that wild magic was the only thing that could defeat Foul, even if only temporarily, and he found someone who was able to wield it.

well this would make for a very petty and evil creator imo .. to play such cruel games with his own creation .. his own children so to speak ..

Well, he was pretty dismayed when he saw the Banes that Despite had placed into the Earth. He was full of grief, regret, etc, and wasn't thinking perfectly clearly. He just wanted to punish Despite. And since Despite can't be killed, imprisonment was it. I guess.

It is interesting how exactly the Creator did come upon TC located far from his creation .. and on a different world entirely ..

unless there is some relationship between TC and berek .. that has always been a current questionable theme ..

Yeah, good questions. And the fact that the Creator was able to find Covenant is what gave me the idea of his having seen wild magic in other realities, then forging some of his own when he made his own reality. He can apparently see into at least this one other reality. Who knows? Just another guess.

[Skyweir]

mmm .. good point ..

more food for thought

about the AoT thing .. yes the Creator imprisoned him within the AoT .. and placed wild magic within its 'structure' .. conceptually or temporally .. i dunno ..

but that wild magic wasnt TC .. TC was the same as that wild magic .. but not then a part of the AoT ..

just thinking out loud .. I may return later and contradict myself if I think better of it all LOL

[Fist and Faith]

but that wild magic wasnt TC .. TC was the same as that wild magic .. but not then a part of the AoT ..

just thinking out loud .. I may return later and contradict myself if I think better of it all LOL

I think you're right. The alternative that Covenant has always been the keystone to the Arch is just too bizarre, and the main reason I argued that the Land must have been a dream. Until I decided that there could be other wild magic.