Star Trek and war

[taraswizard]

Star Trek and war. A few weeks ago I was in a Star Trek discussion and during the discussion, it was pointed out that during the run of the 1980s & 1990s Star Treks (TNG, DS9, Voyager, Enterprise) for each series whenever the writers introduced war as one of the story elements the ratings for the series would go down. Does anyone know about this situation? Do you believe it? Can you explain it? Does it make sense to you do you agree?

I was a little incredulous rergarding the statement since I had been in on discussions about Star Wars before and during those discussions frequently some one would say 'one of the failings of the Star Trek serieses are there is not enough war in them'. That statement would be followed by the following discussion, this is military organization, Star Fleet with a military mission and it does not seem to engage in military activities.

[High Lord Tolkien]

I think it depends on what you mean by "war" as compared to "battle".

DS9 (I never watched Enterprise so I don't know) bored me to the point I stopped watching because of the whole Cardassian/Bajoran thing.

But give me a ship to ship battle and I'm loving it!

[dlbpharmd]

Did TNG have any wars? There were always mentions of past wars, but I don't recall any active wars. (The same could be said of TOS - there was the occaisional battle with the Klingons or Romulans but no outright war.)

TNG did have the occaisional battle as well, and there was of course the Borg. One Borg episode, "Best of Both Worlds," is considered by many to be the best TNG episode.

DS9 had 2 "wars," the Klingon-Federation war and the Federation-Dominioin War. If ratings fell with the first war, why did the producers allow the second? IMO the best thing about DS9 were the story lines with the Klingons and then the Dominion.

[Avatar]

I loved the war with the Dominion as a story line for DS9. I don't remember any wars in TNG though. Could be wrong. *shrug*

Klingons Dlb? I don't remember a war with Klingons in DS9. Early series maybe? DS9 was set in the aftermath of the Cardassian war with the Bajorans, but I don't remember Klingons being at war.

--A

[dlbpharmd]

The Klingon/Federation War last about 1 season, give or take. It happened somewhere around Season 4 or maybe 5. I'm actually in Atlanta this morning but I'll check when I get home and let you know for sure.

[Avatar]

Not urgent Dlb...must have been a season I missed, since I actually only watched them on tape mostly. Thanks.

--A

[Nathan]

I enjoyed the war storyline in DS9 more than any other star trek.

DS9 is my favourite series partly because of the war, but mainly because Bashir and O'Brien are such great characters!

[dlbpharmd]

Not urgent Dlb...must have been a season I missed, since I actually only watched them on tape mostly. Thanks.

--A

I'm home now, and still not certain, but Worf joins the series at the beginning of Season 4, and so I think the Klingon war begins in that season.

[Fist and Faith]

The huge battle when the Klingons attacked DS9 is one of my favorite moments from all Trek!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm pretty surprised to learn that ratings dropped when was came along.

[matrixman]

I'm not sure what the drop in ratings implies. Simply that most Trek viewers don't enjoy or approve of stories centered around war?

[Loredoctor]

Simply that most Trek viewers don't enjoy or approve of stories centered around war?

I believe that is the case.

[taraswizard]

Good discussion.

To clarify, the fellow who made the statement said he had researched the issue, and he was refering to measured ratings and not Trek fan sentiments or preferences. I'm well aware the Trek fan sentiments regarding the Dominion war; BTW, that fell into two camps (when considering those fans who were against the Dominion war), 1) those Trek fans who felt that the DS9 writers had violated Rodenbury's perfect vision of a future without wars, and 2) those Trek fans who felt the DS9 writers were just ripping off the story line of Babylon 5

[dlbpharmd]

I would add a third camp: 3) Those who thought the Dominion War was damn good story telling.

[TIC TAC]

Conflict is at the heart of most any Star Trek episode / film (even the ones that Roddenberry wrote himself). There was no abence of conflict in the original series. There was no absence of conflict in STNG. What seems to be a point of contention is about how long do these conflicts last and if ratings are affected by long protracted story arcs that involve war/conflict. I personally became weary of the Dominion war in DS9 (inspite of the fact that some of those episodes featured some of the best capital ship battles I've ever seen including the films.) Frankly I became weary of any long story arc period. Most of my favorite Star Trek is centered around a singular plot line. For clarification I AM NOT suggesting that the events of one episode do not impact another or that the long history of Star Trek as portrayed through all of the previous series and films should be dismissed. (Enterprise drove me nuts with its repeated violations of Star Trek history). Enterprise also lost me as a regular viewer with its protracted story arcs as did Voyager. Just my humble two bit opinion.

[Zahir]

I am one of those who thought DS9 was the best of the Treks. But I do believe there remains something problematical about Star Trek and war stories. This isn't what the franchise is about. Roddenberry called his creation "Wagon Train To The Stars" which was only slightly accurate IMO. Some also called it "Horatio Hornblower in Outer Space" which seems even less true, to be honest. The best description I ever read was "Gulliver's Travels On A Space Ship."

Unfortunately, I'm not sure that is something that can be sustained as long as Trek has been around. And each round of the franchise has increasingly struggled to fit into what has gone before while finding itself.

War is so inherently brutal and deadly a thing, it seems at odds with the kinds of stories Star Trek is in theory supposed to be. When the brutality was there, the terrible price in death and pain and terror, other elements of the story never quite seemed to fit.

JMHO

[Avatar]

Good posts. And yeah, I'm in the same camp as Dlb. The Dominion War was great story-telling.

Although Zahir makes a good point, I think it would be unrealistic for them to remove it from the scene entirely. Indeed, it could be seen as a stark contrast to the "message" of the federation...this is the alternative.

--A

[dlbpharmd]

those Trek fans who felt that the DS9 writers had violated Rodenbury's perfect vision of a future without wars

I've been thinking about this, and I have to disagree that Roddenberry had such a vision. TOS referred to the wars with the Klingons and Romulans, and we actually saw open hostilities with both of these races. I would say that Roddenberry's vision was that humanity would be united - but not that there would be no conflict at all.

[matrixman]

Good posts, everyone.

I agree with dlbpharmd's view: the human race may be united in Roddenberry's future, but it still has to deal with the other races in the galaxy (sometimes peacefully, sometimes violently). It's still a survival game.

What seems to be a point of contention is about how long do these conflicts last and if ratings are affected by long protracted story arcs that involve war/conflict. I personally became weary of the Dominion war in DS9 (inspite of the fact that some of those episodes featured some of the best capital ship battles I've ever seen including the films.) Frankly I became weary of any long story arc period. Most of my favorite Star Trek is centered around a singular plot line.

My favorite Trek episodes also tend to be self-contained stories. It doesn't seem to take me long to get impatient with long story arcs. That must be a big reason why I never got into Buffy, and why I've stopped watching the new Battlestar Galactica, even though I think it's a fantastic show. I managed to get through the first season fine, but then the thought of the story dragging on and on about the Cylons just made me give up.

I love the original Trek because I could just tune into one episode without having to face the dreaded "to be continued" tag line at the end. Even TNG was mostly one-story shows, right? And the ones that were 2-part episodes were generally pretty good (the ones that I've seen).

[Avatar]

Agreed on the whole MM. While I don't mind story-arcs, I prefer each episode (or two) to be a complete story within the arc.

That said, the DS9 episode that got me hooked on the series was a 3-parter.

--A

[dlbpharmd]

I actually prefer the story arcs over the self contained episodes. With those, there was always the feeling that the story was rushed, and deus ex machina was everywhere (Here come Wesley to save the ship again!)