Defend the Land!

[Sandgorgon rider]

I just finished reading the Warmark section of TIW. I realize that maybe Troy's plan wasn't so stupid after all. If two Lords, 200 Bloodguard and a couple thousand soldiers could hold off Fleshharrowers army for 6 days in the Mithil Valley perhaps it could have worked. I realize that for the purposes of the story Troy's plan could not work, and Foul had many more forces he could have used if he needed to However, if you just consider Troy's plan and Fleshharrowers army as is, it is not so impossible to imagine a victory for Troy.

Assume that Troy got the news of Fleshharrowers army in the time that he expected and that Elena and Covenant did not go off with Amok but stayed with the Warward. With four Lords including Morham and Elena and the Staff of Law they could set up a really powerful "Forbidding" (Wall of force) that no amount of Ur-vile loremasters could penetrate. The Staff of Law should be able to counteract any Evil storms or other nastiness that Fleshharrower tries to whip up with the Illearth stone. Fleshharrower would have to try a break the "Forbidding" himself with the Illearth stone. With Fleshharrower exposed like that I can imagine a Lord or two could knock away the stone from his hands and a couple dozen Bloodguard could beat the crap out of him like they did to Kinslaughterer up in Coerci. With Fleshharrower dead I would imagine the army would start to fall apart. Even if the Ur-viles, Kresh and Cavewights continue to advance they could fall back to Dooms retreat just like they planned and defeat them there.

Yay! Troy gets the victory. Elena and Troy get married and Covenant is stuck in the land playing checkers with Morham until she dies of old age.

[Variol Farseer]

The trouble with that is that Fleshharrower had no reason to go after the Warward once they entered Doom's Retreat. A quarter of his forces would have been enough to keep Troy from reentering the Land, freeing the rest to burn, pillage, rape and destroy to their Illearth hearts' content. Revelstone was largely defenceless, Revelwood entirely so, while Troy's army was stuck defending a place of absolutely no strategic importance.

The fact that Fleshharrower followed Troy into the desert does not reflect credit on Troy's plan, it just shows that Fleshharrower was stupid enough to take the bait. All he really had to do was wait for the Warward to die of thirst, and the war would have been over.

[iQuestor]

FleshHarrower did not have the patience to watch them die of hunger or thirst. He wasn't thinking strategy, only death.

[wayfriend]

I say, if Troy knew that Fleshharrower would take the bait, and then he gave it to him, that's strategy. He should get some credit for finding a way to get the odds more in his favor.

There're always risks. If Troy can only get credit as a strategist if he devises a sure-fire foolproof way of defeating Foul's armies, then I guess he's gonna be a berk.

[Sandgorgon rider]

Variol Farseer wrote

The trouble with that is that Fleshharrower had no reason to go after the Warward once they entered Doom's Retreat.

I am not even really talking about Doom's retreat. I say with the potential forces at his disposal Troy could have destroyed Fleshharrower in the Mithil Valley. Fleshharrower seemed to have a tendancy to put himself forward for individual battle or to use the Illearth stone. I think this makes him vulnerable to a sudden personal attack. When Troy despairs that Foul's army is too big I think he is thinking of a conventional army. Fleshharrowers army appears to be largely driven by his own individual will and the power of the Illearth stone. If you destroy him I think most of the army, and in particular the stone warped creatures will fall apart and be quite easily destroyed. It is only if the Cavewights, Kresh and Ur-Viles are able to regroup after the death of Fleshharrower that you might have a problem.

[Avatar]

I just finished reading the Warmark section of TIW. I realize that maybe Troy's plan wasn't so stupid after all.

This is what I've been saying pretty much all along.

And I certainly agree that a personal attack against the Giant would probably have robbed the army of most, if not all, of their motivation and drive, let alone their power.

--A

[iQuestor]

Yes we can talk about how Troy could have employed a strategy against the Giant Raver, exending a small force to cause the army to lose its leadership, dissipate the hold of the illearth stone on the army, it would have fallen apart, and then the lords would fight a war of attrition to defeat them, etc etc.

Yes I agree it could have worked..... But, it would require foreknowledge on Troy''s part that a Giant led the army, and was equipped with the illearth stone well before he left revelstone. This knowledge would have changed everything.

But: the only way to get that knowledge was for the mission to seareach to have left a lot sooner, actually well before the masscre at Coercri started. And then someone would have had to escape and make it back in time to warn Troy and the Lords. Before Dukka showed up. Before they even knew anything was wrong. They would have had to guess.

Actually, Troy only knew there was an army coming at some point; He didn't know it was lead by FleshHarrower, or any one entity; he probably didn't give the actual leadership any thought.

When he left Revelstone, He had already deployed the troop rafts and it wasn't until later, when he saw Foul's Army from Kevins Watch that he could have known, but he didn't see the giant (I dont think), he only saw the vastness of the army. It was only after runnik came back when Troy knew the giants had fallen and that the illearth stone had allowed a raver to master a giant. But by then, all of the army was either on a forced deatch march toward Doom's retreat, or trying to start an ambush.

By this time, there was no way that any small team could have gotten to the giant and killed it with the entire army there.

So, my point is that Troy would have to have known about FleshHarrower and the illearth stone well before hand, which would have negated the mission to seareach, in order to have that strategy. In order for these events to occur, the book would have had to play out very differently.

Therefore, Troy could not have made the choice to go after the giant raver...

[Sandgorgon rider]

I agree with you completely Inquestor. Troy had no idea that the army was led by a Giant/Raver with a piece of the Illearth stone. With the way events occurred i.e. the delay in notice of Foul's army advance and Elena wandering off with Amok and thereby depriving the warward of her power Troy was probably doomed.

However I am saying the Troy's original plan of marching to the Mithil Valley with 4 Lords, the Staff of Law, 200 Bloodguard and the entire Warward could have worked. After confronting Foul's army it wouldn't have taken them too long to figure out that Fleshharrower was the driving force behind the army.

[matrixman]

I agree that if you can take down Fleshharrower and the Stone, his whole army would more or less collapse into a disorganized mob. The Stone and the Giant-Raver were the Illearth glue that held the mob together. The only real remaining danger would be those tricky ur-viles, who could still form their deadly wedges. I don't think much of the Cavewights or kresh, since they don't have special powers. A force of Bloodguard on Ranyhyn would "suffice" to handle them - with or without the aid of the Warward.

I think something needs to be clarified. While still at Revelstone, Troy and the Lords had in fact been made aware that Foul's army was commanded by a Stone-wielding Giant. Manethrall Rue had reported all of that to them:

"I have spoken of the wind, and the evil in the air which felled my Cords. In the army I saw ur-viles, Cavewights, a mighty host of kresh, great lion-like beasts with wings which both ran and flew, and many other ill creatures. They wore shapes like dogs or horses or men, yet they were not what they seemed. They shone with great wrong. To my heart, they appeared as the people and beasts of the Land made evil by Fangthane.

"That is the work of the Illearth Stone," the High Lord murmured.

But Manethrall Rue was not done. "One other thing I saw. I could not be mistaken, for it marched near the forefront, commanding the movements of the horde. It controlled the creatures with a baleful green light, and called itself Fleshharrower. It was a Giant."

The trouble was that nobody believed her. Or rather, they believed in her sincerity, but their cherished faith in the Giants could not handle the idea that a Rockbrother could ever be made to serve the Despiser. It's ironic that Covenant, of all people, was initially the only one in the room who believed Rue was telling the truth.

[Cail]

Because Covenant didn't have that paticular prejudice. Look what but a tiny fragment of The Stone did in Stonemight Woodhelven.

[iQuestor]

I think something needs to be clarified. While still at Revelstone, Troy and the Lords had in fact been made aware that Foul's army was commanded by a Stone-wielding Giant. Manethrall Rue had reported all of that to them

I had forgotten that. Thanks. So if they had believed her, and taken action, then Troy could have made the decision to try to take out the giant, since from Manethrall Rue's description it was clear what was going on.

but then again, hind sight is 20 20.

Thanks for clearing that up, MatrixMan!

[Avatar]

Very true, in terms of the story, he couldn't have done it. I do think however that the main failure of Troy's was, perhaps ironically, an "intelligence" failure.

--A

[iQuestor]

I guess that the one place where Troy and the Lords might have secured a better outcome is to listen to ManeThrall Rue. I will have to go back and re-read this section again. It is ironic that they didnt listen, especially to them... Had a Giant brought that news....

I still maintain though, that once all the troops were deployed, I dont think taking out the giant would have been easy.

The Giants were such a pivotal race in the whole thig; The lords couldnt beleive they could ever be corrupt. Korik himself beleived it only when he saw it (Then got mad at Sparlimb for 'giving up')

A message here then, that no one can ultimately resist despite.

[wayfriend]

Well ... even if the Lords had believed the Manethrall ... I don't think that that tells them too much.

Until they experienced Fleshharrow personally, I don't think that they could have understood how powerful he was, what was the nature of his hold over his army, or whether he worked from the back (like Foul) or took a lead (as he did), and whether or not he could be lured into personal combat.

They did not know what a Giant/Raver/Stoneweilder was capable of.

They didn't even know he was a Raver. That wasn't revealed until Runnik's Tale, which was after the Warward had departed.

[Warmark]

Exactly, in TPTP Mhoram knew he had to kill Satansheart, in order to defeat the seige.
At least the Lords were learning.

[wayfriend]

Exactly, in TPTP Mhoram knew he had to kill Satansheart, in order to defeat the seige.
At least the Lords were learning.

Oh, I don't think Mhoram thought that he would defeat the siege.

[Warmark]

Well, perhaps not, But as High Lord he had to make the attempt, and this time he knew Satansheart was the key to the army.

[iQuestor]

MHO: Mhoram had an insight that went against a thousand years of the Oath of Peace. He had seen that the Oath itself was, if not Corrupt, it was not the answer against despite and was the reason why the new Lords had never gained the strength and Lore of the Old Lords.

I also do not think he expected to defeat the Giant Raver, but he did certainly go directly after Satansfist and knew the stonewielding Giant was the key to the whole thing.

I think Mhoram expected to die, but he knew that the Oath of Peace had to go, and that change starts with one man, one example. As he was saying goodbye and explaining what he was going to do and why, he was moved to tears at the gates as the others agreed to join him, for it was no small thing: they had to give up their dedication to the Oath and walk into certain, horrible death on the strength of one old man. And they did.

I think that at best, Mhoram was willing to do this to set the example and show that the Oath of Peace was the wrong direction, and if anyone survived the siege, then they would at least consider this if any hope of defeating corruption was left. His only hope was the knowledge that TC was still around.

I also disagree (although slightly) that the Lords could've understood the implications of what Manethrall Rue was saying, she did give the information they needed. Elena immediately cast doubt on that, saying:

"Perhaps the the Despiser has captured and Broken a Giant with the Illearth stone. Perhaps he can create ill wights in any semblance he desires, and showed a false giant to Rue, knowing how the tale of a betraying Rockbrother would harm us..."

I have only read the chronicles 6 times, but isnt it ironic how much damage was done by the Lords, although unwittingly? Kevins Ritual of Desecration, Elena's summoning of Kevin; TC's bargain with the Ranyhyn; even the new direction Mhoram took eventually led to the Clave. None could see the results of their decisions. I am still in Awe of SRD's vision and message.

[Avatar]

Good post Iquestor. I don't know how many times I've read the Chrons, but after reading the first few paragraphs of your post, I think the time has come to read it again.

--A

[iQuestor]

Then, Avatar, my work here is done thanks!