Illogical Passages in the Bible

[Mr. Fishfinger]

There's nothing wrong with it at all. Providing you find mutants with seven digits on each hand and hugely protruding Adam's apples to be sexually attractive, everything will be just fine.

[Prebe]

I bet they'll get used to it

[Avatar]

Anyway, it'll only be in the short term, unless the adaptations are advantageous. If they're not, they won't last.

--A

[Mr. Fishfinger]

With the (not so) honourable exceptions of tabloid journalists and the L'oreal advertising department. Unfortunately those are mutations that are here to stay.

[Zahir]

I was just reading the Bible yesterday, and I found some part so illogical that I honestly got confused.

The Bible is not a science book. It isn't a history text or a newspaper. Treating it as any of these makes as much sense as trying to figure out how to save your faltering marriage by reading the instructions about how to program your VCR.

[Mr. Fishfinger]

That's right. No more looking for logic in the bible, you poor misguided man.

Planets being made in a week, people being made out of dust and living for the best part of a millenia, "gospels" that were written 60 years after the death of Christ (over 30 of which were deemed not worthy of inclusion in the bible), whole books of the bible excised or amended because the church didn't like what they said - it'd never stand up in a court of law yet swearing on the bible is the highest oath we can take.

There's still no war quite like a holy war - especially those ones where the christians declare war on the christians because they don't like what the christians believe in. And where would we be without good old religious homophobia? The bible says homosexuality is an abomination so it's off to hell for punishment without end for you lot.

I'm still haunted by Father Dougal McGuire's question - "What about all those people who went to hell for eating meat on a Friday? Are they still there?

Never mix logic and religion and don't believe everything you read in books.

[Cail]

Well, I guess the question is this....Is The Bible a living document? I'd like to believe that it is, and that the job of The Church (or any church) to interpret it?

IOW, does the Will of God change over time?

[The Laughing Man]

IOW, does the Will of God change over time?

Incredibly profound question, Cail!


briefly, I believe it fluctuates.....an important distinction....

[I'm Murrin]

IOW, does the Will of God change over time?

If God is taken as infinite, eternal, and perfect, then God's will is infinite, eternal, and perfect. You can then ask: If God's will is perfect, then what would it mean if God's will could change? If God's will changed, then it is not eternal. Indeed, it would suggest that His will is not, in fact, perfect. And if God's will is neither eternal nor perfect, then our assumption about the nature of God must be questioned.
If we are to say that God is infinite, eternal, and perfect, then we must assume that His will does not change. If we assume that His will can change, then we must accept that He is not perfect. It all depends on how we are to perceive God's nature.

[Fist and Faith]

I see absolutely no reason to equate perfect with unchanging. It may be that God's will can't be perfect if it is not changable. There may be a God that is infinite, eternal, and perfect, whose will is different in different places, times, situations. Perhaps God knows that different paths are needed by different people in order to reach the same goal. Once again, from Illusions:

If perfection is stagnation, then heaven is a swamp! And the Is ain't hardly no swamp-cookie.

The U.S. Constitution is often praised for being a living document, because of this same idea.

[Furls Fire]

God is God...human is human. The two are not the same. We, as humans try to understand the mystery of God. We try to understand what He wants from us. But, the simple truth is, we just don't know. At least, I do not claim to know. There are many who seem to think they understand what He wants. And there are people like me who strive to do His Will, even without knowing exactly what it is. That is when I rely on His guidance, I follow the path that I perceive He sets before me. But, truthfully, I just don't know if I am going in the right direction at all times.

This is where my faith comes in. And to some that may seem very illogical. And I will go a step further and say, I do not take the Bible as a logical document. It is, a book of Faith. And yes, I believe that it was put together by those seeking power for their own purposes at the time. And those that did, weren't necessarily doing it to glorify God. And yes, I believe that alot of the Gospels were left out for their purposes. It is, by no means, something to take literally. BUT, to me it is the Word of God, tho lost in interpretation and juggling and piecing together, it is still the Word of God. When I hold it in my hands, I feel a power beyond the world. Strength comes to me at my weakest moments. Love and joy flood thru me. When I read the Words of Jesus, I can actually hear Him speaking them.

The Bible defies logic. Because God, as Murrin says, is infinite, eternal and perfect. And human logic tells us...that's impossible. But, faith...ah faith...faith tells us that there is something greater, something glorious beyond this world and beyond humanity. I don't always understand it, I don't always know what to do. But, I would rather have my faith, then try to explain it away with logic.

[The Laughing Man]

beautifully put, Furl's.....

IOW, does the Will of God change over time?

If God is taken as infinite, eternal, and perfect, then God's will is infinite, eternal, and perfect. You can then ask: If God's will is perfect, then what would it mean if God's will could change? If God's will changed, then it is not eternal. Indeed, it would suggest that His will is not, in fact, perfect. And if God's will is neither eternal nor perfect, then our assumption about the nature of God must be questioned.
If we are to say that God is infinite, eternal, and perfect, then we must assume that His will does not change. If we assume that His will can change, then we must accept that He is not perfect. It all depends on how we are to perceive God's nature.

IOW, does the Will of God change over time?

If God is taken as infinite, eternal, and perfect, then God's will is perfectly eternally infinite. You can then ask: If God's will is perfect, then what would it mean if God's will could change eternally? If God's will changed eternally, then it must be infinite. Indeed, it would suggest that His will is, in fact, perfectly eternally infinite. And if God's Intent is perfectly eternally infinite, then our assumption about the nature of our perfectly eternally infinite selves must be questioned.
If we are to say that God is infinite, eternal, and perfect, then we must assume that His will must change eternally. If we assume that His will must change eternally, infinitely, and perfectly, then we must accept that He is perfectly eternally infinite Intent. It all depends on how we are to perceive our own, and God's, perfectly eternally infinite nature.

The Perfectly Infinite Intent of God Fluctuates Eternally

[I'm Murrin]

I'm not very good at putting these things into words. Not the right words, anyway.


My emphasis on perfect alone was perhaps incorrect - more should be put on the combination, perfect and eternal and infinite. But lets just stick with perfect for now.
Taking perfect in its normal meaning: "Lacking nothing essential to the whole; complete of its nature or kind," and "Being without defect or blemish," and "Complete; thorough; utter," and importantly, "Completely suited for a particular purpose or situation."
If God's will is said to be perfect, then I ask again, what does it mean if he changes his will? If he changes his will, then his will was not previously suited for the situation. An infinite and perfect will would, by its nature, be suited to all possible situations, and so change in an infinite perfect will is unnecessary: the existing will, being perfect, should suffice for any change in situation.
It might be better, perhaps, to say that in different situations, and as time passes, the will of god does not change, but the relevance of different aspects of his will changes.


Edit: Everyone's posting at the same time as me, heh. The above was a response to Fist. Esmer, I'm not quite ready to wrestle with your post now, but I had the distinct feeling while reading it that there was some inherent contradiction in your argument.

[The Laughing Man]

the will is relevant to the situation? Vice Versa? the situation is relevant to the will, or intent? why must one and only one will per se last eternally and never change? nothing in nature appears that way, and yet that is what is eternally perfect about nature, eternal and infinite variety and change....


(and don't think anybody's trying to prove you, or anybody else, wrong here, Murrin....it's about throwing thrings around and putting them together in different ways....and I'll wait to see if you can spot it! )

[Furls Fire]

Well, we, as humans, try to define God on our human terms. He is beyond us. His Will is beyond us. His perfection is beyond us. His infinity is beyond us. If we try to comprehend Him on our own terms, we will fail.

So, I don't even try. Because I know that He is way beyond my comprehension.

[I'm Murrin]

The Problem, I think, is that I've been reading Spinoza for the past week or so, and have half-absorbed some of his arguments about the nature of God, spinning them in with my own thoughts on the topic. And I agree, Esmer - it's not about trying to prove people wrong or right, just throwing ideas around and seeing where it goes.

Edit: and again. Furls, I agree. If there is something, whether a God or otherwise, then it will be, simply by its own nature, completely unlike anything we can conceive.

[Cail]

Well, we, as humans, try to define God on our human terms. He is beyond us. His Will is beyond us. His perfection is beyond us. His infinity is beyond us. If we try to comprehend Him on our own terms, we will fail.

So, I don't even try. Because I know that He is way beyond my comprehension.

Pretty much sums it up.

[Fist and Faith]

If God's will is said to be perfect, then I ask again, what does it mean if he changes his will? If he changes his will, then his will was not previously suited for the situation. An infinite and perfect will would, by its nature, be suited to all possible situations, and so change in an infinite perfect will is unnecessary: the existing will, being perfect, should suffice for any change in situation.

I do not believe you or I are qualified to say what the nature of a perfect will would be. You do not have reason to believe these restrictions exist on God or perfection.

It might be better, perhaps, to say that in different situations, and as time passes, the will of god does not change, but the relevance of different aspects of his will changes.

Yes, this idea gives God more room to maneuver.

As a parent, I will let my children attempt certain things that I, because of my greater experience, know they will be unable to accomplish. Who among us takes everybody's word for everything? "Who says I can't do it. Just because you couldn't, doesn't mean I won't be able to." So they try, and they fail. Maybe next week they want to try something similar, but much more dangerous. This time, I forbid the attempt. I explain the danger, and I try to compare the two situations, so that they will understand why I am forbidding the attempt. But if they do not understand, I am still forbidding it. Has my will changed? No. Then why do I now forbid what I once allowed? In the first situation, I was allowing them to learn. In the second, I am keeping them safe.

Another great quote. From Dragonfly. The Masters are in opposing camps on whether or not to allow a certain thing to happen, a thing that will most definitely change things in a BIG way, and many fear will lead to disaster.

"My Lord Patterner, will you defy our Rule and our community, that has been one so long, upholding order against the forces of ruin? Will it be you, of all men, who break the pattern?"

"It is not glass, to break," Azver said. "It is breath, it is fire."

And yes, too many posts too fast! Even Furls is here!

[Zahir]

Logic and reason are the appropriate ways of looking at all aspects of life. For example, aesthetics are no more logical than is falling in love, the devotion we feel to our pets or the avid fandom of some folks for favorite sports teams.

The Bible is at its heart an attempt to describe that for which there are no words, can be no words, yet can only be described with words.

I myself have little patience who read the Bible (or the Torah, or Koran, etc.) as it they were detailed legal documents espousing answers to every ethical dilemna.

Wow. I am so tired I fear this has no chance of being any more coherent, so I"m stoping now.

[danlo]

If we are, in fact, God's children, shouldn't He expect us to grow?

we can grow, but heaven forbid we evolve!