A Real-World Parallel of TC's "Unbelief". **ASSER

[danlo]

Thanks Fist! Now you've got me rerunning the "Apollo" episode from Star Trek through my head!

[Fist and Faith]

Good one!!!

[Prebe]

Of course, that does not prove that no god exists.

If you could give me even the remotest idea of what constitutes "a god" I could at least try.

If you can't, well, then you don't even have an idea of what it is you worship/believe. And I would regard "then why do you believe" as a highly legitimate question.

('You' in the above refers to anyone who believes in any god. Not you specifically Fist. Well, not you at all, since you don't believe in any god )

[Fist and Faith]

I don't think any specific definition of god is required. All that is needed is to posit the existence of a being who has the knowledge and power to prevent us from scientifically proving or disproving its existence. That's simple enough, and, whatever other qualities it may or may not have, its existence is, by definition, beyond our ability to disprove.

Of course, that's not reason to believe such a being exists. The reasons are the personal feelings and/or experiences that many people have. And I have no more reason to attempt to talk them out of these beliefs than I do to talk people out of believing in a Ftumsh. In fact, in the interest of peace and understanding, I usually try to make other non-believers accept all that.

[Prebe]

I see your point, and I completly respect your unwillingness to try to convert others. I do, however, think that the world would be a better place without religion, so one of my reasons for debating is to try to convince others of just that. In fact, I think it is the only way I can be true to my ideals. I know I'm not going to convince many (if any), but if I can at least make people think about why they believe, I have come a long way.

Edit:

The reasons are the personal feelings and/or experiences that many people have.

You are forgetting indoctrination. Alas, all people are not raised as agnostics. I'll wager that if they were, there would be less than 1% religious people in the world.

[Fist and Faith]

At least you aren't holding your breath waiting for a religion-free world. And I have been known to write letters to the newspaper asking believers for proof of this or that - when they try to make the laws reflect their beliefs. If there's a chance I'll soon be a criminal, subject to arrest, for not practicing religion, then I'm going to fight. And I want my kids to have the same freedom of choice. I don't care if there's public prayer, in school or elsewhere, as long as anybody can pray to whatever god they want, and everybody is free to ignore the people who are praying.

But I don't think the world would be particularly better without religion. I think the sadistic bastards out there would still be sadistic bastards, they'd just find something else to justify their desires and actions.

[Avatar]

It's an interesting question. I see to remember that somebody once posted an article about a study that showed that religion did not make countries/people happier/better/whatever.

Fist does however have a point...those who are going to commit attrocities will do so in he name of anything. On the other hand, we could hope that less people in the middle would be motivated to do so...

--A

[Prebe]

I think the sadistic bastards out there would still be sadistic bastards, they'd just find something else to justify their desires and actions.

Probably, but it would be justifications that could be argued by rational thinking as opposed to religion.

[Avatar]

Or at least, so you would like to believe...

--A

[Fist and Faith]

Indeed. But it doesn't matter. Anybody who tries to commit genocide can justify it as rationally and non-religiously as they want, but they'd still be wrong, and evil, and they should be stopped.

[Avatar]

Well, agreed in spirit and principle Fist, certainly. But as Devil's advocate here, what exactly makes them wrong?

--A

[Prebe]

Anybody who tries to commit genocide can justify it as rationally and non-religiously as they want, but they'd still be wrong, and evil, and they should be stopped.

IF the justification is a religious one, people who share the dogma of that particular religion (even if not directly involved) would tend to NOT to be as keen to stop it as those who don't.

Example: If Hitler had found good biblical backing for the Hollocaust, christian nations would have been less inclined to help stop him.

[Fist and Faith]

Ah, I see your point, Prebe.

Avatar, I make them wrong. Isn't that easy? If there is no objective way of determining what's right and wrong - and I don't believe there is - then we each decide for ourselves. They may think genocide is good. Bully for them. I'm still going to try to stop them.

[Avatar]

Perfectly fair Fist. And the best answer to that question that I've ever heard I think. *bows*

--A

[Fist and Faith]

Aw, shucks...



Thanks

[Avatar]

Credit where it's due and all that.

--A

[Fist and Faith]

The circumstance is this: I am convinced that it is not possible for any person to believe that a set of self-contradictory notions can actually represent an actual reality.

This topic came to mind because of a thread in the Loresraat. It seems that the nature of light, and other quantum stuff, is self-contradictory notions. The thread is:
kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9866
Loremaster has an amazing post on Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:16 pm. Read it, and watch the very cool cartoon at the link he gives at the end of the post. As far as I can tell, paradoxes have been repeatedly verified using the best scientific methods and devices.

[Hope]

I don't know what SRD intended when he formed Covenant. I do know that his story illustrates the inner battle I've encountered as a fairly new believer in Christ.

The haunting of rules (law) and to obsession with self-preservation in the face of a beauty that will not release you yet requires you to relinquish much of what makes you "feel" safe creates internal pressure that (hopefully) forges character. The paradox of having come to a point of self-efacement sufficient enough to allow changes (a devasting look at my own fallibility and need) yet retaining enough strength to choose to believe what I most hope for...it is difficult and lovely, painful and merciful. Impossible with man, deftly and graciously done by God.

[drew]

That was quite a first post Hope!!

[Fist and Faith]

Right?!? I think we'd better buckle up for Hope!