Death and what comes after -- ware spoilers

[jwaneeta]

I searched old threads and read up on what's been said about the Afterlife in the Land, but forgive me if I missed something and this has been discussed before.

I've been wondering about this for some time, and I'd really like to hear other people's thoughts. The thing is, I don't want to spoil, and some of my questions touch on stuff I read in the Gradual Interview, things that perhaps might hint at what's coming in Fatal Revenant. So I'm going to err on the side of caution and spoiler cut like mad.

So, in WGW, Caer-Caveral breaks the Law of Life. This enables Covenant to give Lord Foul one square in the eye, despite being dead, and all ends well.

As of Runes, what exactly does being dead entail? Has it changed?

As of WGW the Dead are held apart from their deserved rest by the breaking of the Law of Death. They're incorporeal. They seem to be omniscient, or nearly (They can see the future; Hollian had "spent time among the Dead and seemed certain of her knowledge.") (Except Kevin seemed as fundamentally clueless as ever he was in life, but okay).

After Caer-Caveral breaks the Law of Life, only Hollian and Sunder return to corporeal, breathing existence -- I assume because their restoration was the means of breaking the Law, not the result of it. Covenant, at WGW's end, isn't corporeal -- he's "not physically alive." He's able to absorb Foul's malice and defend the AOT, but he's still a shade, am I right? His abilty to affect reality seems limited to the non-physical plane.

So, what I'm wondering is...

Ware -- Gradual Interview references --Speculation and Fatal Revenant mentions

Spoiler

The nature of the afterlife seems like it's going to be pretty critical in the Last Chrons. In the GI, Donaldson says that by breaking the Laws of Life and Death, Elena and Caer-Caveral have opened the door to the utter destruction of the earth. (sob!) The title Fatal Revenant fills my uneasy mind with foreboding. What I want to know is, have the rules of the afterlife changed since WGW?

Let's say that Covenant is the Fatal Revenant. Will he be corporeal, or at least able to affect something on the physical plane? Has his long stint upholding the AOT affected him? How about all the Foulness he absorbed -- is there any basis to the speculation that Foul and Covenant have become, or are becoming, one?

Are the Dead, in fact, now capable of change?

In WGW, the Dead we saw seemed to exist in time, but were not of it. Their personalities were the same as in Life -- with the exception of Elena, who was significantly less crazy. Poor woman, dying was the only thing that could improve her . Anyway, the centuries had not changed them, or their values; the good remained good and the bad, bad. They were static beings.

Perhaps this was an effect of Andelain and/or the power Caer-Caveral used to defend it? Did Andelain act as a time caspule? I only ask this because Sunder and Hollian said they were "sustained, and in some measure defined, by the soveriegn Earthpower of the Andelainian Hills." They couldn't leave it without physically dying again -- and everything within Andelain seemed to exist in a sort of suspension, timeless and apart.

I don't really buy that. Just an idea. But whatever the reason

Spoiler

it seems plain that the rules of death have changed somehow. Yes, Covenant was able to save the day at the end of WGW, but that was a purely metaphysical battle. For Covenant to become a player in the Last Chronicles, it seems to me he's going to have to resume corporeal form. He's going to have to change, or maybe he's changed already. Donaldson's GI seems to imply that this is what's going to happen, -- and it's going to be a Very Bad Thing, unless I'm reading his remarks completely wrong. Is this karmic backlash for the breaking of the Law of Life? Is it absolutely doomed to be disasterous, in a First Cause, Aquinas sort of way?

ETA: I forgot to ask one other question: Is Covenant likely to be omniscient, like the Dead of WGW? How could that possibly work, structurally? It seems to me the Dead of FR, specifically Covenant, will have to be significantly changed from previous Dead for this to fly. But how can that be?

And finally,

Spoiler

could poor Hile Troy/Caer-Caveral do anything right? I'm going to be profoundly bummed if his selfless immolation turns out to be a booby trap for the Land: that seems dreadfully sad to me. And where's Caer-Caveral now, hey? Where's his shade? Is he just... offline? Was his spirit utterly spent in the sacrificial conflagration, did he cease to exist, gawd forbid? Did he rate a bit of a rest, did he go to the Real Earth heaven, is he in hell for being a well intentioned, heroic n'er-do-well, what? I feel very protective of Caer-Caveral -- wherever he is, I hope he's happy. And if Donaldson's going to destroy the Land, I sure hope he doesn't have to watch.

*frets*

[variol son]

Although I do believe that Covenant will return in corporeal form, I do not believe that the Covenant we see at the end of Runes of the Earth is the true Covenant.

Why? Mainly because he reminds Linden, through Anele, that he is dead. Which would mean that some pretty serious power would need to be expended to bring him back to life.

Perhaps this is what the Elohim mean when they tell everyone to beware the Halfhand?

[Avatar]

Whether or not the true Covenant will ever be corporeal, I can't guess. But I agree with VS that the one we saw at the end of Runes is not the true one.

It would make sense that the rules governing life and death in the land have remained the same since WGW though, although I'm not sure that Hollian's renewal was the means rather than the result. Not 100% sure anyway.

--A

[iQuestor]

What an awesome topic!!

Here is my two cents:

1. The Covenant we saw isn't the real, corporeal covenant; I say that because earlier he kept telling Linden 'Find Me' -- well she hasn't done so yet; he showed up at Revelstone while she was there -- A coincidence? I THINK NOT! It sought her out and brought Jeremiah....

2. Andelain - I think that the sheer concentration of Earthpower is what sustained Sunder and Holian, and they required this to continue to live. I look at it as Andelain was constantly renewing them rather than a time capsule. Andelain seems to to stand still because nothing ever goes through the same annual processes -- its always spring.

I think that the act of Caer-Caveral in restoring corporeal life to Holian was the act that broke the Law. To break a Law, you have to force something to cccur that the Law prevents, such as Elena did with Earthblood to command Kevin's Shade to confront Foul.

3. I think that there is a reason Foul is out there more this time; I think it has to do with the fact that he and Covenant did merge at the end of WGW, Foul is definately part of Covenant , although they obviously have retained their own identities.

4. The laws of Death and Life have been shattered, and I think that has changed what is possible for dead. But I do not think they can do asnything. At the end of WGW Findail banished Covenant: "Avaunt, ye shade, begone" or something like that.

I think TC and Jeremiah riding up is the biggest threat here, because Foul obviously has Jeremiah, he told Linden so many times, and in this, I do not doubt it. What we see riding up at the end of Runes are either:

1. Imposters which have been formed/changed to look like TC and Jeremiah in order to influence Linden in some act.

2. Actually TC and Jeremiah do ride up, although I think that TC may have some severe limitations on what he could do because I think he has to be riding a body rather than being corporeal as the original TC we know and loathe. A Jeremiah, who can obviously shout encouragement, I think is not going to be good for anyone -- I do not like the implications here for Linden. I dont think it is him unless it is an Avatar we are seeing which doesnt have the limitations of the original.

I think they both are tools. tools in the Land are bad. And who else would Linden most like to see where she is right now? why, TC and Jeremiah. And, oh my goodness, here they are! How convenient for the Land. How good for Linden.

Something very bad is going to come of this.... Muah ha ha ha ha haaaa.

[callback]

Several comments.

As for death prior to the breaking of the law of death, it seems to me that our only real indication of what it is like is the inference we can make from what dead Kevin says when he is commanded from beyond the grave by Elena. The two differences that I see are that the dead were then unable to manifest themselves and that the dead were unable to affect the course of events in the Land.

Now breaking of the law of Life is a lot more confusing. I took it as removing an obstacle that prevented the dead from returning to a corporeal existence. (Which makes me suddenly wonder if this might go a bit towards explaining the motivations of the incorporeal Demondim, but that's clearly a different topic.) Once the law of death was broken, Foul was clearly able to bring the dead to life (as with Elena.) Why should we then not think that somebody (maybe Foul, maybe someone else) has returned Covenant to corporeal existence? After all, Covenant did explain at the end of WGW that he was subject to being dispelled as the other dead. Surely the other rules affecting the dead affect him as well, including this resurrection thing.

That said, I'm far from sure that the Covenant we see at the end of Runes is the real Covenant. That reference to Jeremiah shouting encouragement to the other riders at the end just seems too fishy, especially as we have Foul's confirmation that Jeremiah's mental state has not changed. (He refers to Linden's son as being empty.)
We should note here the warning about the actions of the dead being fairly incomprehensible to the living in the second trilogy. It implies that the dead look upon the events in the land from a considerably different perspective than the living, with perhaps far different information upon which to base their choices, or perhaps the inability to modify their world outlook beyond death. (Covenant's actions of freeing the dead at The Grieve tend to support this second point.) At any rate, there is something that blocks a lot of meaningful communication with the living. I do not believe that they are omniscient by any means; rather I suspect that they are merely inscrutable, with both resources and weaknesses that mortals cannot understand.

As for Hile Troy, the logical outcome of his sacrifice would be that he ceases to exist among both the dead and the living. I hope that that's the scenario Donaldson envisioned, because it adds the most meaning to his death. But I could be wrong.

[Relayer]

I agree... it's just TOO easy for Linden if they just come riding up to her. Unless Foul was lying (which it is said he never does), then how did Jeremiah escape, or does Foul let him go for his own reasons. And as you said, TC keeps telling her to Find Him. SRD even calls the chapter "Find Me" ... is this to throw us (Linden) off?

It's interesting that SRD wrote that final passage without any mention of Linden's reaction to the fact that Jeremiah appears to be full of awareness. Or anything about her sensations of him and TC... are they who they appear to be? Is there anything about their nature that seems wrong? There's something about how the Masters call them "strangers" ...

Maybe this is what the Mahdoubt's warning about how "beware of how love can mislead" refers to... Linden may be so overjoyed to see them that she doesn't realize she's being duped... at least until it's too late.

----------
As for meeting them, I can just hear it:

Jeremiah: Hi Mom, what's up? Glad you could make it.

Linden: ??!!!??!?!!!!!

J: Umm, there's something I have to warn you about... btw, I've been hanging out with the Elohim for, like, forever. We built things with lots of neat people, like Mr. Esmer and his grandpa Kastenessen. Anyways, about that warning...

LA: B-but...

J: Have you met that nice man, Mr. Covenant? He told me to call him "Uncle Thomas."

LA: <faints>

[wayfriend]

Well, we're certainly in danger of this thread turning into another "was that really?!" thread.

Wanted: Dead or Alive

I agree that Covenant, immediately after WGW, was Dead. He would be bound by the strictures of the Dead, as he has suggested.

A good question is, has he been brought back to life? Dispite the Law of Life being broken, that would require some significant and rare power to achieve. Foul could do it though, if he wanted to. But would he? Would his mechanizations be furthered somehow by a corporeal Covenant? I cannot imagine why this might be, but I do not doubt it either.

One good clue we have is that this is still TC's Chronicles. They're not Linden's Chronicles, although she's absconded with one quarter of them. If TC is still the central protagonist, then I would imagine that he can be effective for something. This points towards Covenant being resurrected - being Dead doesn't seem to leave you many options.

On the other hand, Covenant did say, and recently, that he is Dead. If the message can be trusted, then that settles the matter. I don't think he would say that if he were resurrected again.

Furthermore, remember also that Sunder and Hollian were sustained by Earthpower. And Earthpower is not happy living in close proximity to wild magic, which Linden demonstrates repeatedly in Runes. I strongly suspect that, unless another source of power can be found, Covenant could not be resurrected. Wild magic may sustain him, but his words at the end of WGW indicate that he threatens the Arch if he uses power again.

Which brings up the REAL question, IMO. What's up with the wild magic? Does Covenant still got da juice?

What is Covenant packing?

Covenant gave the ring to Linden. If Linden gained something there, then Covenant lost something. If it's now truly Linden's ring, then it's not truly Covenant's any more.

On the other hand, if Covenant has some spititual connection with the Arch of Time due to the banefire and the apotheosis, then I don't think he can give that up so easily. I don't think he could just give Linden the ring and head for the exit. I don't think that the Creator is done with him.

I think that Covenant's new relationship with wild magic is going to be the central question of Fatal Revenant.

In addition, Covenant will be (or should be) greatly changed by being Dead for 3500 years. As Jwaneeta said, this seems to indicate that he'll have access to some mad wisdom. Which he would not be able to impart to anyone, including the reader. (Which, again, makes me wonder, how can he remain a central protagonist under that circumstance.)

There's a question about what he's been up to during those years. There's no way to catalog all they he may have seen and done.

Which brings up the point about Kevin's Dirt and the Dead. Perhaps Covenant has been in limbo for most of the intervening years, unsummoned and hence unconscious. This may be more of a help to the story than a hindrance.

And, finally, there is the enigma of the use of power. If Covenant uses power, he changes his relationship with the Arch of Time somehow. Well, after 3500 years, you have to wonder, did he let loose? Did he get ticked off at some annoying insect one day, go zzzzap, and then go, oh crap?

And who was that masked man?

Now, as to conjecture about who was that ...

"Fatal Revenant" does not indicate to whom the Revenant is Fatal. Remember, the Bane in Lord Foul's Bane was ... well, Lord Foul's.

[kevinswatch]

I haven't read this whole topic, but I just wanted to say that one of the biggest things that confused me in the chronicles was the whole Law of Death/Life thing. I mean...huh?

Of course...many things confused me in the chronicles, heh.-jay

[jwaneeta]

I think that the act of Caer-Caveral in restoring corporeal life to Holian was the act that broke the Law. To break a Law, you have to force something to cccur that the Law prevents, such as Elena did with Earthblood to command Kevin's Shade to confront Foul. .

Yeah. I think that resurrecting Hollian was distinct from the aftermath, if you know what I mean.

After the abortive Drool Rockworm resurrection, Linden says:

"Blood brings power. They had to kill someone. But what Caer-Caveral did for Hollian can't be done here. It only worked because they were in Andelain. And Andelain was intact. All that concentrated Earthpower. Concentrated and clean. Whatever those Cavewights resurrected, it was going to be abominable."

Later, after Covenant dies, he describes the limits of his condition:

"I can't do it myself. I don't have your hands - can't touch that kind of power anymore. I'm not physically alive. And I can be dismissed. I'm like the Dead. They can be invoked - and they can be sent away. Anybody who knows how can make me leave."

Hm, that's interesting. I never noticed before that Covenant is speaking as though he's not actually one of the Dead: only like the Dead, whatever the heck that implies. They can be invoked, they can be sent away. Not we. Huh. I wonder if this is one of those backdoors SRD referred to.

Then again, later he seems to clearly identify himself as one of the Dead, without condition:

"Caer-Caveral made it possible. Hile Troy." And old longing suffused his tone. "That was the 'necessity' he talked about. Why he had to give his life. It was the only way to open that particular door. So that Hollian could be brought back. And so that I wouldn't be like the rest of the Dead - unable to act. He broke the Law that would have kept me from opposing Foul. Otherwise I would have just been a spectator."

Confusion.

Anyway, the breaking of the Law of Life doesn't mean automatic bodily restoration. Check. But it's certainly possible.

And perhaps Covenant doesn't need a body to act? Who knows what's happened while he's been hanging about in the ether? That's what I'm really wondering about. But again, what conditions could change his condition circa WGW, where he couldn't pick up the ring, heal the Land, stop the Sunbane...

And that leads, tangentially, to another question that's been floating around in the back of my mind. All signs point to the aftermath of the breaking of the Law of Life being very bad news for the Land. But Covenant's sacrifice seems to have had a redemptive effect in his own world, unexpectedly enough. The skeevy residents of Covenant's leper-hating town have undergone something of a transformation, from what we see at the beginning of Runes. Stricken by collective remorse after Covenant's death, they've built a mental hospital to aid the very type of people that murdered him. In stark contrast to the earlier books, most of the people we see in the Real World are decent and well-meaning.

So perhaps the real question of salvation was to be resolved in Covenant's native world, rather than the Land? No, wait, that doesn't make sense: if that was the point, it wouldn't have been established in the very first pages of the first book. (and the contagion of common decency in Runes could simply be a result of POV: everybody was rotten to Covenant in the first and second chrons. We see Runes through Linden's eyes, and perhaps she's simply treated better than they ever treated him.)

So, it's down to the Land's fate after all. But I find it really hard to believe it's going to be as bleak as all signs seem to indicate. If Covenant's sacrifice was powerful enough to have positive ripples as far away as the Real World, surely it's not going to come completely a cropper in the Land?

I sure hope not. I'm wimpy that way.

[jwaneeta]

As for Hile Troy, the logical outcome of his sacrifice would be that he ceases to exist among both the dead and the living. I hope that that's the scenario Donaldson envisioned, because it adds the most meaning to his death. But I could be wrong.

Alas, I really think you're right. I don't want it to be true, but it fits the feel of the books and all that's gone before.

I have a problem with the idea of an immortal soul being annihilated, especially as the result of a good and heroic act, but this is a fantasy series, not a theology lesson. Sigh.

Heh, my goopy solicitude reminds me of a story about the artist Winslow Homer and his painting The Gulf Stream. It shows a man on a demasted sailboat surrounded by sharks, with a waterspout looming on the black horizon. Exasperated by letters of concern from tender hearted ladies, the painter exclaimed: "The waterspout misses him! The sharks go away! He's rescued by another boat! Now leave me alone!"

[jwaneeta]

Wanted: Dead or Alive

Ooh, good post, Wayfriend!

I think that Covenant's new relationship with wild magic is going to be the central question of Fatal Revenant.

Agreed.

There's a question about what he's been up to during those years. There's no way to catalog all they he may have seen and done.

Which brings up the point about Kevin's Dirt and the Dead. Perhaps Covenant has been in limbo for most of the intervening years, unsummoned and hence unconscious.

Yes, someone in a previous Afterlife thread suggested that Kevin and all the Dead were simply in suspension until summoned, which had never occured to me. The idea kind of gives me the creeps.

This may be more of a help to the story than a hindrance.

But creepiness aside, I agree that for storytelling purposes, it would solve a lot of problems.

"Fatal Revenant" does not indicate to whom the Revenant is Fatal. Remember, the Bane in Lord Foul's Bane was ... well, Lord Foul's.

Hah! Well, you do make that point.

[jwaneeta]

Whether or not the true Covenant will ever be corporeal, I can't guess. But I agree with VS that the one we saw at the end of Runes is not the true one.

--A

I'm kind of going on the assumption that you're right, mostly because immediately after finishing the book I read a bunch of threads here about it. When speculating about Covenant getting resurrected or whatever, I'm thinking about something else, unrelated to what we're seeing at the end of Runes, which you all convinced me months ago is a complete fake out.

[Avatar]

...The Covenant we saw isn't the real, corporeal covenant; I say that because earlier he kept telling Linden 'Find Me' -- well she hasn't done so yet; he showed up at Revelstone while she was there -- A coincidence? I THINK NOT! It sought her out and brought Jeremiah...

...I think TC and Jeremiah riding up is the biggest threat here, because Foul obviously has Jeremiah, he told Linden so many times, and in this, I do not doubt it...

...Something very bad is going to come of this.... Muah ha ha ha ha haaaa.

My thoughts exactly. Good posts everybody.

--A

[wayfriend]

Hm, that's interesting. I never noticed before that Covenant is speaking as though he's not actually one of the Dead: only like the Dead, whatever the heck that implies.

I'd like to ring a bell for that statement! That's an exellent point, and I believe it is significant.

Then again, later he seems to clearly identify himself as one of the Dead, without condition

Actually ... he uses that word "like" again. "So that I wouldn't be like the rest of the Dead". And it is possible to read "the rest of the Dead" as the Dead excluding Hollian and Sunder, rather than the Dead excluding Covenant. (Which leads to the question, were Sunder and Hollian no longer "Dead", or were they Dead with Special Conditions?)

Let's posit that Covenant is "like" the Dead in many ways, but he isn't exactly that. And run with it a while.

Here's something interesting ...

In the most literal sense, death in the "real world" for a character like Hile Troy, or Thomas Covenant, simply means that character can no longer return to his/her "real" life. But of course the implications go much farther (and are explored more fully in "The Last Chronicles"). Literal death in the Land as well is a significant possibility. But neither Troy nor Covenant actually died in the Land: rather they were transformed; became beings of an entirely different kind. In Troy's case, a series of transformations were involved, resulting in a new Forestal. In Covenant's case, the destruction of his mortality freed his spirit to support the Arch of Time (the fact that he retains some form of sentient identity is demonstrated by his ability to speak to Linden during her translation back to her "real" life). In both cases, huge powers were required to cause transformation instead of literal death. So: literal death in the "real world" does not *necessarily* impose extinction in the Land. In the "real world," Troy's body suffered literal death not long after his accident.

(11/21/2004)

This rather clearly states that Covenant ain't Dead, doesn't it?

I think his final apotheosis may have involved "dying", in that he gave up his mortal existance. And that he may consider himself "dead" now, and so say things like "Remember, I am dead." But this is strong evidence that he isn't like all the other Dead in the Land.

[Jerico]

It seems like TC became the Avatar of the Arch or Time.
Like Hile Troy became the one who protected Andelain so TC protected the Arch.
Hile gave up his Status to break the Law of Life/ Maybe TC will have to break another Law to give up his Status and be returned to the living?
Any guesses as to which law he will break?

[jwaneeta]

Hm, that's interesting. I never noticed before that Covenant is speaking as though he's not actually one of the Dead: only like the Dead, whatever the heck that implies.

I'd like to ring a bell for that statement! That's an exellent point, and I believe it is significant.

Now that I'm rereading and looking for it, the text seems to contain a lot of ambiguous bits like that.

Actually ... he uses that word "like" again. "So that I wouldn't be like the rest of the Dead". And it is possible to read "the rest of the Dead" as the Dead excluding Hollian and Sunder, rather than the Dead excluding Covenant. (Which leads to the question, were Sunder and Hollian no longer "Dead", or were they Dead with Special Conditions?)

Okay, I'll buy that. It could go either way, but I like your interpretation better.

Let's posit that Covenant is "like" the Dead in many ways, but he isn't exactly that. And run with it a while.

I'm totally on board with that. There are too many intriguing hints to just let it lay.

Here's something interesting ...

In the most literal sense, death in the "real world" for a character like Hile Troy, or Thomas Covenant, simply means that character can no longer return to his/her "real" life. But of course the implications go much farther (and are explored more fully in "The Last Chronicles"). Literal death in the Land as well is a significant possibility. But neither Troy nor Covenant actually died in the Land: rather they were transformed; became beings of an entirely different kind. In Troy's case, a series of transformations were involved, resulting in a new Forestal. In Covenant's case, the destruction of his mortality freed his spirit to support the Arch of Time (the fact that he retains some form of sentient identity is demonstrated by his ability to speak to Linden during her translation back to her "real" life). In both cases, huge powers were required to cause transformation instead of literal death. So: literal death in the "real world" does not *necessarily* impose extinction in the Land. In the "real world," Troy's body suffered literal death not long after his accident.

(11/21/2004)

This rather clearly states that Covenant ain't Dead, doesn't it?

Oh, THANK YOU. That was one of the GI quotes that started me wondering, but I couldn't find it.

I think his final apotheosis may have involved "dying", in that he gave up his mortal existance. And that he may consider himself "dead" now, and so say things like "Remember, I am dead." But this is strong evidence that he isn't like all the other Dead in the Land.

Well, I'm all enthused now. If Covenant isn't exactly like the other Dead of the Land, that opens up a lot of possibilites. And potentially avoids some story problems that were looking insolulable, at least to me.

I love speculation threads.

[jwaneeta]

It seems like TC became the Avatar of the Arch or Time.
Like Hile Troy became the one who protected Andelain so TC protected the Arch.
Hile gave up his Status to break the Law of Life/ Maybe TC will have to break another Law to give up his Status and be returned to the living?
Any guesses as to which law he will break?

Are there any Laws left?

Seriously, that's an interesting thought. Yeesh, when you think of what happened to Andelain when Caer-Caveral clocked out... and Covenant's not defending a pretty patch of land, he's defending time itself.

Potentially hairy, to say the least.

[Fuzzy_Logic]

I would assume that the appearance of this false Covenant is exactly why covenant warned Linden to remember that he's dead.

[kevinswatch]

Are there any Laws left?

There's always Brannigan's Law.

And Brannigan's Law is like Brannigan's love--hard and fast.



Heh, sorry. It's late.-jay

[Warmark]