Why be a pragmatist/realist?

[Marv]

"I'm not negative...I'm a realist......if you commit a crime, son, you better get ready to do some hard time......take responsibility for your own actions.....drugs are bad.....get a job...be a productive member of society.....pick yourself up by the bootstraps".

But, why!? Don't put a label on me-I'm not a bleeding heart liberal. I'm not a whining commie, I could really care less about Marx or Hegel.

I just want to know what anyone can get out of being a bloody realist-A equals bloody A, If you shoot at me I'll bomb the f*ck out of you. Seriously, did we stop evolving with opposable thumbs? If you shoot at me-I'm gonna ask "why!?" "Is it something i did? Can I make it better?" Hang on, isn't that one of my guns? Maybe arming you in the first place was MY fu*king mistake!!"

When I wake up and see rapists and murderers on T.V I don't think I hope all those people I have no chance of ever understanding spend the rest of their lives ignorant and miserable. I hope, that if it's possible, even if it's on the outer extreme of likelyhood that one day, maybe many years from now, they find peace from whatever must be haunting them and can experience some joy. Because really, what do I get out of wishing them pain? is it better to want retribution for every crime ever commited? let's purge the earth of sin in our everlasting guilt of all the bad things we do.

"It's ok folks, I've found the solution to the worlds problems-We need to take away the drugs! What happens is, out of the blue, these people decide to get hooked on coke and without that temptation, they'd be fine-a-o.k." BTW who decided to ban acid? Acid should be made compulsory at school. I had to wait nineteen years to have the best 10 hours of my bloody life.

I make the choice to believe that we're capable of more. I don't want utopia-i wanna see people fu*kin' try to hope. The hardest thing any of us can ever do is open ourselves up to the possibility that....this is it. All we have is us...forget science, forget faith...all we have is us-the way we interact with each other is all that matters.

(I'm somewhat dissorientated at the moment so I hope i made some sense)

[Lord Mhoram]

Personally, I'm not too big on this whole "reality" thing. I've always been more interested in a fantasy or theoretical world.

[danlo]

and...after all that you still want to join the military?

[Marv]

and...after all that you still want to join the military?

After all that, I certainly do not want to join the military.

[The Laughing Man]

From Cayce's perspective, we are not simply physical bodies, instead we are spiritual beings who are having a physical experience entailing personal growth and development. Many individuals have incorrectly assumed that the goal of being in the earth is to simply reach heaven, find enlightenment, or somehow "get out of the earth." And yet, this is a perspective quite different from that contained in the Cayce material. Instead, Cayce believed that as children of God, our mission was to somehow bring spirit into the earth.

The dynamics of our deep and literal connection to God can be found throughout scripture, beginning with Genesis when we are told that God made humankind in the Creator's image. But our relationship with God as our Parent is perhaps no more clearly illustrated than in the Parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-24). This parable describes the journey of the soul: we were with God in the beginning, through the power of our free will we were able to make choices that were not necessarily in perfect accord with the Creator. And, at some point, we will "arise" and decide to return to God, regaining our inheritance and experiencing our true relationship with Him.

One of the readings beautifully describes the spiritual nature of humankind in this way:

"For ye are a corpuscle in the body of God; thus a co-creator with Him, in what ye think, in what ye do." - Edgar Cayce reading #2794-3
The readings state that God desires to be expressed in the world through us. The example set by Jesus is apparently a "pattern" of wholeness for each and every soul. Regardless of an individual's religious or personal beliefs, this Christ pattern exists in potential upon the very fiber of their being. It is that part of each of us that is in perfect accord with the Creator and is simply waiting to find expression in our lives.

This Christ pattern was further described as "the awareness within each soul, imprinted in pattern on the mind and waiting to be awakened by the will, of the soul's oneness with God" (5749-14), and its manifestation is the eventual destiny of each and every soul. With this in mind, the readings present Jesus as our "Elder brother," a soul who came to show each one of us the way back to our spiritual Source by perfectly manifesting the laws of the Creator in the earth.

Just as an older sibling can sometimes provide insight and counsel into some of life's difficulties (because he or she went through them first) Jesus as Elder brother can assist us in facing life's challenges. What may surprise individuals is that this fact has nothing to do with religion, it has to do with spirituality and discovering our true relationship with God - a relationship we share with Jesus. The readings not only affirm that Jesus was the Son of God, but they also state the same thing about each and everyone of us. In other words: Jesus was like each one of us and, ultimately, each one of us is destined to be like Him.


Q. What is the main purpose of Jesus' incarnation?
EC: To glorify the Christ Consciousness in the Earth . in the lives of those with whom ye come in contact, and to live the same thyself. - Reading 2441-4

Q. What is the meaning and significance of the words Jesus and Christ...?

EC: Just as indicated. Jesus is the man, the activity, the mind, the relationships that He bore to others. Yea, He was mindful of friends, He was sociable. He was loving. He was kind. He was gentle. He grew faint, He grew weak and yet gained that strength that He has promised, in becoming the Christ, by fulfilling and overcoming the world! Ye are made strong in body, in mind, in soul and purpose by that power in Christ. The power, then, is in the Christ. The pattern is in Jesus. - Reading 2533-7

This transformative power of the Christ Consciousness is awakened as individuals act in accord with the pattern set by the example of Jesus' life. In fact, this awakening is the essential purpose for which each soul enters into life.

From Cayce's perspective, Jesus is the Elder brother for all of humankind, deeply committed to assisting all souls in reawakening to the awareness of their oneness with God. This Jesus is not interested in religious conversion, denominationalism, or even mighty personal accomplishments. Instead, He is simply interested in how we treat one another. With this in mind, even in the midst of our diversity as a human family, we share a common spiritual heritage. We are all Children of the same God. We are all part of the one spiritual Source. And, we are all destined to return to our Creator, our Mother/Father, our God.

not that I'm getting all religious on your thread here, what I am trying to point out is that Jesus represents a social problem, not just a spiritual one...maybe a merging of the two is ultimately desirable, but not necessarily required....you don't have to be spiritual to be nice, heh....all you have to do is follow the pattern, or fill the mold....or as Don Juan would say: Be Impeccable. Impeccably.

Impeccability begins with a single act that has to be
deliberate, precise and sustained. If that act is repeated long
enough, one acquires a sense of unbending intent which can be
applied to anything else. If that is accomplished the road is
clear. One thing will lead to another until the warrior realizes
his full potential.

The only freedom warriors have is to behave impeccably. Not only is impeccability freedom;
it is the only way
to straighten out
the human form.

[Avatar]

Great post Tazz.

This is it. To make of what we can, and to do with what we will.

Some of us will hope for the best, some of us will assume the worst.

Pragmatism isn't as bad as you make it out to be though. But sure, it can be unpleasant.

I'll have to think about this before I say any more though.

--A

[Zarathustra]

Tazz, if your way works better in the end, isn't that pragmatism? Or are you purposely arguing for something that you know will never work? What's the point of doing that?

In the end, we're all pragmatists. We just have different ways of trying to make things work. Some of us have unrealistic, improbable plans to achieving our goals because we have an aversion to unattractive truths. Others recognize that reality isn't perfect, and imperfect means are the best way to plow through and get the job done.

If you shoot at me-I'm gonna ask "why!?" "Is it something i did? Can I make it better?" Hang on, isn't that one of my guns? Maybe arming you in the first place was MY fu*king mistake!!"

And you think that will keep you from getting shot? Oh, I forgot, you're not a pragmatist, so you're not worried about getting shot. I, however, follow a slightly different creed. I care more about my life than a terrorist's feelings.

We Americans are not the only people who have armed others. Iran has armed Hezbollah. China armed Iran. Russia, France, Germany arm others. Once rockets are flying, it's a little too late to trace back the entire history of arms development and deployment to see who was first at fault. I suspect that line of reasoning will lead to cavemen picking up sticks. Maybe we should actually start with the guy shooting, rather than look for a mythical First Cause. Because I'm pretty sure that your search will stop with the First Person Who Holds a Different Political View Than Me, rather than trace it back to cavemen.

Is it something I did? Can I make it better?

Godamn, dude, you crack me up! The answers are: No, it's not something you did, and no, you obviously can't make it better because you're living in an acid-drenched dreamworld.

[Marv]

I don't care about being desensitized, i care about my life

Right there is my bloody point! I care about being desensitized, I care that some people are so wrapped up in looking out for what they believe in they aren't even prepared to countenance another's point of view. It's better to be dead than desensitized. It's better to be in an acid drenched dream world than to stop trying to understand why people think differently to you.

We Americans are not the only people who have armed others. Iran has armed Hezbollah. China armed Iran. Russia, France, Germany arm others. Once rockets are flying, it's a little too late to trace back the entire history of arms development and deployment to see who was first at fault. I suspect that line of reasoning will lead to cavement picking up sticks. Maybe we should actually start with the guy shooting, rather than look for a mythical First Cause. Because I'm pretty sure that your search will stop with the First Person Who Holds a Different Political View Than Me, rather than trace it back to cavemen.

If you think my rant(and I know it was a rant) was aimed at rooting out original blame then you've misunderstood. It was about getting to the point in our evolution and maturity to say "I can't control every little thing". The most important thing is how I conduct MYself.

Godamn, dude, you crack me up!

To hell with it, if I bring joy in to your life then great. Seriously. Even if it is when your laughing at me.

[High Lord Tolkien]

"I'm not negative...I'm a realist......if you commit a crime, son, you better get ready to do some hard time......take responsibility for your own actions.....drugs are bad.....get a job...be a productive member of society.....pick yourself up by the bootstraps".

But, why!? Don't put a label on me-I'm not a bleeding heart liberal. I'm not a whining commie, I could really care less about Marx or Hegel.

I just want to know what anyone can get out of being a bloody realist-A equals bloody A, If you shoot at me I'll bomb the f*ck out of you. Seriously, did we stop evolving with opposable thumbs? If you shoot at me-I'm gonna ask "why!?" "Is it something i did? Can I make it better?" Hang on, isn't that one of my guns? Maybe arming you in the first place was MY fu*king mistake!!"

When I wake up and see rapists and murderers on T.V I don't think I hope all those people I have no chance of ever understanding spend the rest of their lives ignorant and miserable. I hope, that if it's possible, even if it's on the outer extreme of likelyhood that one day, maybe many years from now, they find peace from whatever must be haunting them and can experience some joy. Because really, what do I get out of wishing them pain? is it better to want retribution for every crime ever commited? let's purge the earth of sin in our everlasting guilt of all the bad things we do.

"It's ok folks, I've found the solution to the worlds problems-We need to take away the drugs! What happens is, out of the blue, these people decide to get hooked on coke and without that temptation, they'd be fine-a-o.k." BTW who decided to ban acid? Acid should be made compulsory at school. I had to wait nineteen years to have the best 10 hours of my bloody life.

I make the choice to believe that we're capable of more. I don't want utopia-i wanna see people fu*kin' try to hope. The hardest thing any of us can ever do is open ourselves up to the possibility that....this is it. All we have is us...forget science, forget faith...all we have is us-the way we interact with each other is all that matters.

(I'm somewhat dissorientated at the moment so I hope i made some sense)

I notice that you made no mention of the victims of any of the crimes you listed.

That great that you want rapists and murders to "feel bad" (my quotes) later in life.
You say you're not a liberal but you care more for the criminal than the victim?
That's basic liberalism to me.

[Marv]

The reason I was very clear about my thoughts not emanating from a certain stereotyped political persuasion was because i know the typical responses to those stereotyped political persuasions. It's usually to simply call someone a 'liberal' or a 'socialist' and let the unfounded stigma do the rest of the work.

Is vengance ever an appropiate response among rational people? Isn't it rather base?

[Queeaqueg]

I thought Realist or Realism was a way of viewing your reality. You know, Naive Realism and the counter is Idealism.

[Avatar]

You say you're not a liberal but you care more for the criminal than the victim?
That's basic liberalism to me.

Don't see him saying that at all HLT. And as for considering that the defining characteristic of liberalism, well, I think that's a pretty narrow view.

Interesting point about desensitisation Tazz. I dunno...I'm pretty desensitised. It doesn't make me care only about myself though I think.

Imperfect means huh Malik? If imperfect means are alright to produce acceptable imperfect solutions, then what does it matter which imperfect means we use? Or are means only viable in the sense that they get you what you think/believe that you want?

--A