Is conversion good or bad?

[Prebe]

I've noticed that many religious - given the composition, mostly christian - members of the board are very adamant about not trying to push their faith or convert anyone. Is that the right thing to do?

Imo, if you believe that those who don't belong to your religion of choice will burn in hell in the hereafter, or at least be left afloat in an unpleasant limbo, wouldn't it be the altruistic thing to be more aggressively missioning?

You all know that I'm an aggressively missioning atheist

[Avatar]

Hmm, I think this might belong better in the Close really. In fact, I think I'll move it before I get too attached to it in here.

I'm in two minds about it really. On the one hand, I think that if I had any faith on the order of what believers have, I wouldn't be able to avoid trying to do it, any more than I can avoid trying to convince people that they are responsible for their own happiness, or that every perspective is, in a sense, equally true and valid to each perceiver.

On the other hand, nothing turns me off more than somebody trying to push their religion down my throat.

I have to say that not attempting to convert people is the right thing to do.

(Maybe they don't try to convert us because they don't want to face the prospect of sharing heaven with us Prebe. )



Nope, I think that the world would have been a lot better off if long ago, people had agreed that a person's belief was between he and his god, and nobody else's problem or business.

Now there's nothing I like more than a good religious debate, unless its a good political one. But people who want converts are not actually debating. My initial premise in any discussion is that there's always a chance that I'm wrong. People who proselytise though must perforce approach every discussion on the premise that only they are right.

--A

[Prebe]

I have to say that not attempting to convert people is the right thing to do.

From the pow of a fundamentalist I think you are right. I'm already sure there is no god, and nobody are going to convince me differently. I am, so to speak, a lost cause, and any harping on about the qualities of religion will slide right off.

But there are doubters and agnostics that could be convinced. When I deliver propaganda I'm sure (or at least I hope) that there is a potential atheist hidden inside most religious people. If you want to change anything through debate, or if you want to come across as true to your ideals (I know you don't have any hope for the first, but you certainly do for the second) I think a modest degree of persuasion should be expected. At least if you claim to care about the (after)life of others.

But perhaps you are right, they just don't want us to share heaven with them

Nope, I think that the world would have been a lot better off if long ago, people had agreed that a person's belief was between he and his god, and nobody else's problem or business.

But that would mean that the message of love from christianity or islam would not have been spread through the crusades or 9/11 respectively, right? (Heh!)

[Xar]

Nope, I think that the world would have been a lot better off if long ago, people had agreed that a person's belief was between he and his god, and nobody else's problem or business.

But that would mean that the message of love from christianity or islam would not have been spread through the crusades or 9/11 respectively, right? (Heh!)

Well, not to keep beating a dead horse, but I think it's pretty much accepted knowledge that crusades and 9/11 were driven by a twisted interpretation of religion, not by religion itself. If a group of atheist fanatics decided that the best way to show people there is no God is to bomb all places of worship (and maybe murder those worshiping inside), would you say that's atheism's fault or just the fault of people following a twisted version of it?

Anyway, that's straying from the main question. As a believer, I personally do not feel inclined towards making proselitism. This very likely depends on my very same belief, in different ways. Personally, I don't see how trying to brainwash somebody into entering my religion is going to do that person any good; most people are stubborn and already have their own set of beliefs, and in 99,9% of the cases, trying to debate this with them ends in a stalemate. But additionally, I tend to think that a person's beliefs is a matter between him and his God/gods/nothingness/whatever; I know I wouldn't particularly enjoy having somebody telling me how wrong I am in believing what I believe, and how salvation could only be achieved by believing in what he does, so why should I do the same to other people? Of course, this also has to do with the nature of my belief: the idea that people who don't believe in what I do will go to Hell after death is totally alien to me. As far as I'm concerned, as long as you live a good life (and we could spend a long time discussing what is "good"), you deserve Heaven in the afterlife, and I cannot conceive the thought of a God who punishes good people just because they didn't believe in him.

Heck, teasing those who try to convert me is a little pleasure of mine... I have an interest in religions and mythologies and I read quite a lot about them as a hobby, so by now I'm versed in the general beliefs of several of them; two months ago a young Mormon guy (funny to think he called himself "Elder"...) came to me while I was walking down the street and trying to explain his faith to me, hoping to gain a convert and poking and prodding to find out where my religious beliefs were... I think I kind of scared him away when I started discussing with him how my beliefs, while rooted in Christianity, have been influenced by Zoroastrianism, and then proceeded on to describe the core beliefs of the latter

[Avatar]

I don't have a problem with a modest degree of persuasion, I think that's built in whenever two people discuss firmly held but opposing opinions, because we all deep down think that we are actually right.

But there's a difference between that and what I would call proselytisation.

--A

[Prebe]

I know I wouldn't particularly enjoy having somebody telling me how wrong I am in believing what I believe, and how salvation could only be achieved by believing in what he does, so why should I do the same to other people? Of course, this also has to do with the nature of my belief: the idea that people who don't believe in what I do will go to Hell after death is totally alien to me.

And hence in your case the choise not to proselytise is completely justifiable from an altruistic point of view.

crusades and 9/11 were driven by a twisted interpretation of religion, not by religion itself.

I can't seem to think that religion can be anything other than:
a: Fundamentalist scripture adherence or
b: An interpretation of that scripture
I.e. In my view there is no "religion itself"

In case of b, whether an interpretation is regarded as twisted depends on the context. While I'm sure most muslims today find that the 9/11 attack comes under that heading, I'm not so sure about the majority of christians during the crusades.

[Avatar]

An excellent post Xar.

Will have to think about Prebe's latest though...

--A

[Cail]

IMO, it's much better to spread the Word by attraction, not by promotion. You tend to piss off fewer people that way.

[Prebe]

IMO, it's much better to spread the Word by attraction, not by promotion. You tend to piss off fewer people that way.

While I agree about the attraction bit, pissing people off in this life really shouldn't be an issue. At least not if you think there is a minimal chance of conversion with the ensuing salvation, and if you actually care for the person to whom you are speaking of course.

[Cail]

That makes no sense at all. Treating people with respect in this life is incredibly important. And other people's salvation isn't my business.

[Plissken]

Perhaps the missing element here is the nature of true conversion.

Cail may be onto something - teaching by living example seems a far more sure way of creating good converts than door-knocking and Brimstone.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Perhaps the missing element here is the nature of true conversion.

Cail may be onto something - teaching by living example seems a far more sure way of creating good converts than door-knocking and Brimstone.

Except that most people are idiots.
And door-knocking and Brimstone has been effective for the last.....well....since the "beginning".

[Xar]

I know I wouldn't particularly enjoy having somebody telling me how wrong I am in believing what I believe, and how salvation could only be achieved by believing in what he does, so why should I do the same to other people? Of course, this also has to do with the nature of my belief: the idea that people who don't believe in what I do will go to Hell after death is totally alien to me.

And hence in your case the choise not to proselytise is completely justifiable from an altruistic point of view.

crusades and 9/11 were driven by a twisted interpretation of religion, not by religion itself.

I can't seem to think that religion can be anything other than:
a: Fundamentalist scripture adherence or
b: An interpretation of that scripture
I.e. In my view there is no "religion itself"

In case of b, whether an interpretation is regarded as twisted depends on the context. While I'm sure most muslims today find that the 9/11 attack comes under that heading, I'm not so sure about the majority of christians during the crusades.

Whenever one reads a book he creates his own interpretation; however, not all interpretations are equally correct. If I read "black" and interpret it as "dusky black" or "obsidian black", then I'm interpreting in my own personal way; if I read "black" and interpret it as "white", then while this is also a personal interpretation, there's no denying it is not faithful to the spirit of the reading. And I'm not defending the crusades, or saying that most people didn't agree with them at the time, of course; but then again you can't really compare 9/11 and how the Muslim world sees it to the crusades and how the Christian world saw them at the time. All else being equal, you are comparing two deeply different religious organizations (Christianity is centralized, Islam is de-centralized), in two wildly different historical periods (less chances of communication in medieval times, lower cultural level among the common people, which led to them trusting their local priest all the more as a source of wisdom, and so on) and in two different cultural environments as well (even practicing Muslims in Western countries do not completely share in Western culture, since they retain traditions and customs that derive from their own culture).

If you really want to make a correct comparison, then you could compare 9/11 and the Muslim reaction to, say, what would happen if the Pope called for a Crusade right now. Do you think the majority of Christians would flock under the banner and storm the infidels? And that those who remained behind would watch and cheer? I seriously doubt that; I think if the Pope ever did something like that, he'd likely gather fundamentalists, and maybe enthusiasts who just want to wade into slaughter and claim to be Christians just so they can do that, but most Christians would very likely remain home.

[duchess of malfi]

To change the subject a bit:

You know how they have that "do not call" list for telephones so telemarketers cannot call you anymore?

I would love it if I could be on a "do not knock" list to keep religious recruiters and sales people from knocking on my door.

There are few people as obnoxious as those who try to convert you to their religion. I know that they are trying to do great good in their own eyes, and they see themselves as public servants, out saving souls...but man oh man, are they ever obnoxious!!

I was walking once through the UM campus with my older son, who was only a toddler at the time. I wasn't wearing my wedding ring for whatever reason that day. One of the religious freaks who hang out on the Diag saw me and my son walking along, minding our own business, and came over and started screaming at me for being a sinful woman who was going to burn in hell forever for having a child out of wedlock and a bunch of garbage like that. He scared the hell out of my son and pissed me off. What an asshole!

[SoulQuest1970]

Personally, I beleive the way you live your life and treat the people and world around you speak far more for your beleifs than preaching and trying to convert does. It is true that actions speak louder than words.

I beleive there is truth and beauty in all religions, although a few of them I have to admit I have to look a bit harder for the beauty. I consider myself a Unicathlitarian. People seem to find that quite funny. I'm a UU/Catholic/Pagan kinda hybrid. Catholic mostly because I was raised in that church and I like the rites of passage for kids. There are too few of those left anymore. Most consider driving and drinking rites of passage. I prefer something more spiritual. If my kids decide not to be Catholic as adults, that is fine by me. Most of all I want them to use thier minds and figure out thier faith on thier own. Faith is not something that can be dictated or forced upon a person. It is intensely personal.

I will say that I do respect the Catholic church because I have never once seen them try to convert anyone. In fact if you think you want to become Catholic as an adult you have to go through classes called RCIA. If an non Catholic marries a Catholic, they tell them not to become on just to make thier spouse happy... that it has to be something they truely want to do.

[duchess of malfi]

I have great respect for the Jewish faith for the same reason. One of my friends converted to Judaism; she had to approach the congregation leaders about it; she had to take some pretty serious classes before she could do it; she had to ask and be refused a number of times before she was allowed to convert.

And no one screamed at her in public, or came knocking on her door.

[Esmer]

The Chamber of 32 Doors

At the top of the stairs, their's hundreds of people,
running around to all the doors.
They try to find themselves an audience;
their deductions need applause.

The rich man stands in front of me,
The poor man behind my back.
They believe they can control the game,
but the juggler holds another pack.

I need someone to believe in, someone to trust.
I need someone to believe in, someone to trust.

I'd rather trust a countryman than a townman,
You can judge by his eyes, take a look if you can,
He'll smile through his guard,
Survival trains hard.
I'd rather trust a man who works with his hands,
He looks at you once, you know he understands,
Don't need any shield,
When you're out in the field.

But down here,
I'm so alone with my fear,
With everything that I hear.
And every single door, that I've walked through
Brings me back here again,
I've got to find my own way.

The priest and the magician,
Singing all the chants that they have ever heard;
They're all calling out my name,
Even academics, searching printed word.

My father to the left of me,
My mother to the right,
Like everyone else they're pointing
But nowhere feels quite right.

And I need someone to believe in, someone to trust.
I need someone to believe in, someone to trust.

I'd rather trust a man who doesn't shout what he's found,
There's no need to sell if you're homeward bound.
If I chose a side,
He won't take me for a ride.

Back inside
This chamber of so many doors;
I've nowhere to hide.
I'd give you all of my dreams, if you'd help me,
Find a door
That doesn't lead me back again
-take me away.

[Menolly]

Judaism 101: Jewish Attitudes Towards Non-Jews

[sgt.null]

RCIA is correct SoulQuest. we Catholics are taught to see other religions in a good light if possible. we witness when appropriate, when asked and such. knocking on doors and converting is not our method.

[A Gunslinger]

RCIA is correct SoulQuest. we Catholics are taught to see other religions in a good light if possible. we witness when appropriate, when asked and such. knocking on doors and converting is not our method.

I am a catholic myslef...but Grocho Marx's comment about thinking twice about joining any club that would have (me) as a member comes to mind!

I think that conversion attempts are OK if they are made by those you are learned and compassionate. I hate pushy "My way or you'll be burning in 459th level of the fires of hell" kinda thing.