Lord Foul in this world

[spacemonkey]

Okay,if the creator cannot interfere with life in the Land,WHY can Lord Foul screw with people here????? If it's going to break the arch of time why can he reach out while the creator cannot reach in? I mean really this has got to work both ways here,Lord Foul does not have the White Gold at this point so how is it he can reach into this world AND affect more than one person? Not to mention reaching out in last series? The White Gold is the paradox not Lord Foul! Can somebody answer that one?

[Xar]

It's probably because, unlike the Creator, Foul is trapped in the Arch of Time... Let me see if I can explain my theory more clearly.

The Creator is outside the Arch of Time and the Land; his existence (as far as we know) is not bound to Time. He appears in Covenant's world and seems to have physical form there, but that's very likely a choice, and he might possibly dispense with it altogether: remember how he seemed to die in the SC so that Linden had to try to revive him, and then as soon as she had demonstrated that she truly cared about not letting people die, he recovered instantaneously and waltzed away after giving a cryptic answer, as if nothing had happened. The Creator, as far as we know, exists in the eternal void beyond the Arch of Time, and thus is not constrained by it. Probably, if he tried to reach through the Arch, the interference of an eternal, timeless entity within a time-bound domain would wreck the Land. Additionally, acting directly, the Creator would deprive his creation of free will and of the power to save or damn itself, thereby destroying its spirit. Conversely, Covenant's world's physical and "magical" laws are probably different: the Creator can manifest in it, which means that he can touch that world with impunity, since he can even exercise his power (to cure Covenant of his allergic reaction, for example).

Foul is trapped in the Arch, and his normally eternal existence is twisted and forced to go through Time. Apart from the possible agony this must be causing him (as SRD said, the Land is a terrible prison for Foul), he is an immortal and eternal being forced into a lesser state of existence, constrained by the boundaries of Time. Therefore, he can act in the Land with impunity because he is constrained within, while the Creator wouldn't. Now, the Land is a "higher reality" than Covenant's world (SRD said himself that characters of Covenant's world can "expand" in the Land, but characters from the Land cannot "shrink" to enter the real world); the breaking of Laws has caused the Arch of Time to become more "permeable" from the inside. So Foul, while he cannot manifest himself fully in Covenant's world, like the Creator can (because Foul is imprisoned and he'd need to be free, presumably, to do so), he can reach "down" and touch Covenant's world with his power. The more Laws are broken, the more power he can employ; thus in the First Chronicles he could do nothing, in the Second Chronicles he twists the minds of those religious fanatics, manifests in a fire and summons Covenant while he is dying, in the Third Chronicles

Spoiler

he can even send a Raver into Joan, create a lightning circle, control the mind of Roger, and summon not just one or two people, but at least three (Roger, Joan and Linden - possibly Jeremiah, but I think Jeremiah was already partly in the Land to begin with).

[A Gunslinger]

Okay,if the creator cannot interfere with life in the Land,WHY can Lord Foul screw with people here????? If it's going to break the arch of time why can he reach out while the creator cannot reach in? I mean really this has got to work both ways here,Lord Foul does not have the White Gold at this point so how is it he can reach into this world AND affect more than one person? Not to mention reaching out in last series? The White Gold is the paradox not Lord Foul! Can somebody answer that one?

I would argue that Foul HIMSELF is not conducting any action himself, Mr. Monkey. While he is able to observe the goings on here, he seems only to be able to send proxies and the like. He seems unable to act in this plane.

[Buckarama]

As far as I'm concerned there are already too many here as it is.

[spacemonkey]

All right Xar on some levels I can dig what you're saying,however by "reaching down",it's still has to go thru the Arch of Time.Up and irregardless,the Arch is a prison to both the Creator and Lord Foul,so by reaching thru THEORETICALLY, should shatter the Arch,thus destroying everything that hinges upon it.Even if the Law is warped and/or broken the Law of imprisonment is still binding.The Law of Death was broken,the Vow of the Haruchai was broken(God that's still really sad!!).But the law of imprisonment still stands.Either TC himself has to break that one,or there's still yet another Law we don't know about that is broken to cause Lord Foul to be able to reach thru...............

[Xar]

All right Xar on some levels I can dig what you're saying,however by "reaching down",it's still has to go thru the Arch of Time.Up and irregardless,the Arch is a prison to both the Creator and Lord Foul,so by reaching thru THEORETICALLY, should shatter the Arch,thus destroying everything that hinges upon it.Even if the Law is warped and/or broken the Law of imprisonment is still binding.The Law of Death was broken,the Vow of the Haruchai was broken(God that's still really sad!!).But the law of imprisonment still stands.Either TC himself has to break that one,or there's still yet another Law we don't know about that is broken to cause Lord Foul to be able to reach thru...............

Not necessarily. I think it's a matter of "compatibility"; the Creator is free and retains his eternal existence, therefore he cannot reach through the Arch of Time because he is not bound by time. And the Law of Time states that nothing done can be undone, which means that since the Creator threw Foul in the Land, he cannot pull him out. Foul, on the other hand, is trapped in Time (indeed, his inability to be destroyed stems from this), so he could reach through the Arch, even though he cannot free himself. I'm not sure how best to explain this... It's a difficult concept to think about.

[wayfriend]

I liked your first post Xar, but I think this one is a little off.

I don't think that the Creator can't reach through the Arch, it's that he won't. He's restrained by ethics as well as physics - he doesn't want to violate the integrity of his creation.

There's also an element of degree ... it's not that he touches something and everything goes boom. Donaldson doesn't make things so absolute. I think that small interferences have small repercussions, larger ones have larger repercussions. It's forcefully ejecting Foul which is such a large interference that the Arch would be shattered.

Remember, the Creator led Berek to the One Tree.

And he tested Covenant and Linden, gave them a little spin, before they went into the world. At the end of TPTP, the Creator admits to influencing things, but only as much as he dares, and with great risk.

Foul's ability to reach out of the Arch is something else altogether. The World of Haven Farm is not the level of existence from which Foul came; Foul is not escaping the Arch, in a sense, by going there.

The Haven Farm world and the Creator's world are both Time-bound. What is happening in the Chronicles is that the boundaries between these worlds are breaking down as the consequence of the breaking of Laws. Imagine that the Creator's world and the Haven Farm world are two adjacent brownstone houses. Foul wants to get out onto the street. However, all he can do is influence the people in the brownstone adjacent to him. He starts bashing things, and his home becomes architecturally weak, the floors begin to sag, the walls start cracking. He can't escape yet, but there's now a hole into the next house - he can reach in and grab a few small things. The damage worsens, the hole gets bigger ...

Foul is trapped by Time, imprisoned, like a fly in honey. This doesn't give him powers, it takes them away.

[wayfriend]

No, I risked too much when I spoke to you once. I interfered in no other way.

The Creator interferes by speaking with Covenant. Very small interferences are a calculated risk, but which have been made.

Only through such a risk could I hope to preserve the rectitude of my creation.

(This "risk" refers to Covenant being free to save or damn.) Interesting word here - rectitude: MORAL integrity. The Creator strives (also) to preserve the moral integrity of his creation.

[Zarathustra]

There is zero evidence that Foul has any effect on Covenant's world besides a metaphorical effect. It's the same kind of effect Despite has in our own world--it comes from US, not some big bad guy in a fantasy land.

I know what you're going to say:

"He made those people join a cult! Put their hands in fire!" People do crazy sh*t all the time. We have plenty of cults right here in the real world. You don't need Foul to explain that (besides the Foul in their hearts).

"He manifested himself in the fire!" If that was really Foul in the fire, then he CAN leave the Land and the logic of this entire 10 book series fails. Either that was Foul in the fire and we can throw our books away with a big "F*&% YOU!" to Mr. Donaldson for lying to us, or something else was going on. I don't read that passage literally. I think it was a metaphor for Linden's very specific horror and fear at what these people were doing, which mirrored her own horrific deed in the past. It might be natural, given the fact that her own Despite begins with her father, to hallucinate an "evil" father figure in the bonfire--one that symbolizes her own self-judgment and perceived need for retribution against her.

"He made lots of lightning!" Lightning happens. Writers embellish for effect.

"Joan was possessed!" Maybe she was just nuts. It happens. Tragic events laden with both guilt and horror often make people go crazy in very idiosyncratic ways.

We know this for certain: Foul cannot get out of his prison. That seems pretty absolute. He can't leave for just a little while, or step half-way out. If he could show up in bonfires and lightning storms, then he could leave his prison altogether. Either the Arch holds him absolutely, or it doesn't. He can't even affect things outside the Arch, because this would necessitate a mechanism of interaction, a connection, a little bit of Foul touching this world.

Rather than trying to make sense of the times he apparently leaves the Land, why not assume the opposite? Why not assume that he didn't leave, and that something else is going on here, and then try to explain that?

[Buckarama]

well it seems that most of the things happen through avatars. Representitives of Creator/Foul. This would seem to me that the only way to reach through is through some one else.

[jwaneeta]

The AOT is a construct whereby the ineffectuality of an otherwise omnipotent Creator can be explained. Can God create a rock he can't lift? Yeah, if it's inside a membrane made of time.

I must say, this is a very Protestant sort of view, if you'll forgive me. Suffering: bad, Creator: good = a cosmology where suffering is a glitch in the machine, an ill to be resisted and overcome, even if - especially if, in the case of the Chrons - personal ego is the primary motivator.

Western mysticism has a broader take - it denies neither the bitter reality of suffering nor the Creator's benignity and omnipotence. It simply says that suffering is worthwhile. And Buddhism goes even further, so far as to say suffering is such a tissue of illusion as to have no phenomenal existence at all.

Oh, blast, I need to go to the vet. Wish I had a Blackberry.

[spacemonkey]

jwaneeta, well here's something that comes from many years in theology/seminary college: God cannot create a rock he cannot lift,He must remain true to Himself.All-powerful,all-knowing, time has no constraints on God because He created time.Yeah I'll pause for all who fall asleep in church......But we digress here,even in cosmology,Bhuddism,Hinduism,Protestant,Jewish,basically any faith there isn't a *glitch* in the machine,you cannot have a back without a front,an up without a down,IF this were to take place then the ensuing Paradox would rip space-time apart. Malik has an interesting point,the logic would fall apart in book 10.Buckarama has another interesting point of avatars always doing the bidding of Lord Foul,however remember thru the whole time EXCEPT in the Wounded Land all persons/things of power were present when TC arrived in the Land.whether it was Drool Rockworm,Lord Mhoram,or High Lord Elena.ALL were present at the time of TC's arrival.In the Wounded Land the only one present was Lord Foul himself.No other person/things of power were present to welcome or taunt TC and Linden on their arrival.......

[jwaneeta]

jwaneeta, well here's something that comes from many years in theology/seminary college: God cannot create a rock he cannot lift,He must remain true to Himself.

Oh, I agree. I guess I wasn't clear. What I meant was that the "membrane of time" was utilized in the TCTC cosmology specifically so things can go wrong and require a champion to intervene on the Creator's behalf. In the TCTC, God has very much created a rock he can't lift.

According to most theologies all things are contained in God, so it'd be pretty hard for any part of creation to be separate and beyond intervention. I think the AOT is a fairly neat solution -- it certainly beats the jaded, do-nothing attitude of The Powers That Be in the Whedonverse, for example.

[wayfriend]

There is zero evidence that Foul has any effect on Covenant's world besides a metaphorical effect.

Malik, you can certainly argue that each of those phenomena, taken by itself, has a rational explanation that doesn't involve Lord Foul.

However, if you put them all together, the mass of circumstance works against your theory. The actions of the cult members, Joan's insanity, the images in the fire - the weather for crise sakes! - it's just too unbelievable that they are unrelated.

We also have the characters words on the matter. Why should we disbelieve them, other than claiming a right to disbelieve anything that they say (and what's the point of a story if you do that?)

Does not the author address this in the GI? His answer, was, I believe, that Foul's reaching into the world of Haven Farm could not be proven or disproven. If your outside looking in, it can be rationalized away, as you have done. If your inside, then of course you see Foul affecting the Haven Farm World. It's the same contradition as the Land being real or not real.

[spacemonkey]

jwaneeta,yes i'll concede to your point with the AOT,very good analogy,puts forth the champion to save the Creator's tail feathers and keeps the whole thing from being too far jaded as well.....and really keeps the lazy POWERS-THAT-DO-NOTHING busy as well!!!!

[Avatar]

I agree with Malik, at least in the sense that I don't really see that Foul can simply affect things in our world. However, that's not to say that he can't exert some kind of influence "through" the barrier as it were.

But yes, to get back to the original question, I agree with Xar's first post. Foul is inside, the Creator is outside.

(And perhaps the Arch encompasses our earth too?)

--A

[spacemonkey]

I think Malik and Xar have explained it somewhat,but ,about maybe the AOT encomposses our world?That would mean whatever happened in the Land would affect us here as well.I still think there is a shadow player who we haven't seen as of yet..........

[Avatar]

Doesn't necessarily follow that what happened there would affect us I think. Afterall, the stars are trapped in the arch too, according to the cosmology of the Land.

Perhaps the arch encompasses more than one plane of reality.

As for a third force...I'm gonna guess no.

--A

[wayfriend]

I don't believe that the world of Haven's farm is also encompassed by the Arch. If it was, then the breaking of Laws would affect both worlds; has anyone raised the Dead in Covenant's world?

Foul is a timeless being. Such beings do not come from our world, or the Haven Farm world. So he comes from somewhere else. (Somewhere where things done may be undone? Or does "doing" even matter?)

But Haven's Farm world is also a time-constrained world. It has it's own Laws, it's own Time, it's own matrix. They are similar.

And they are related somehow, and connected somehow. Or else how could Covenant move between them? And, in some way, there is a relationship: the Creator's world is somehow a "more real" reflection of Haven Farm's world.

So we have two universes, connected, similar enough that beings from one can thrive in the other.

It becomes possible for disfunction in one to spread into the other ... the path between them can be widened, battered open ...

[A Gunslinger]

But Haven's Farm world is also a time-constrained world. It has it's own Laws, it's own Time, it's own matrix. They are similar.

And they are related somehow, and connected somehow. Or else how could Covenant move between them? And, in some way, there is a relationship: the Creator's world is somehow a "more real" reflection of Haven Farm's world.

So we have two universes, connected, similar enough that beings from one can thrive in the other.

It becomes possible for disfunction in one to spread into the other ... the path between them can be widened, battered open ...

Spread...like say leprosy from one extermity to another?