SRD's attitude toward the Haruchai.

[jehannum_2000]

In the Last Chronicles, he seems to be slagging the Haruchai off more: their inflexibility, their incompetence in anything but physical combat. Does anyone else feel this?

[Fist and Faith]

Yeah, I do. They don't have to be as stupid as they are. Stave said to Manethrall Hami: "Your distant ancestors held our respect. At the last, their devotion exceeded ours." and "The courage of the Ramen was beyond question, and their devotion to the Ranyhyn proved greater than the fidelity of the Bloodguard." They clearly see that the Ramen are superior to them in what they think is an important way, yet they make themselves less and less worthy in this regard. Now they've turned the Land into a place that never would have inspired their ancestors to make a Vow.

[Avatar]

But largely because of their own perceived failure in upholding that vow I think.

--A

[A Gunslinger]

True Avatar. Their own inflexibilty caused great harm, but avoided another sort of harm that they themselves thought was more harmful than the harm they were knowingly inflicting.

Confused? Hee hee!

[dlbpharmd]

Now they've turned the Land into a place that never would have inspired their ancestors to make a Vow.

Well said. I'm disappointed with what we've seen of the Haruchai thus far. They've allowed themselves to become pawns in a game that they could never understand, and I fear that will be their ultimate downfall.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Now they've turned the Land into a place that never would have inspired their ancestors to make a Vow.

Well said. I'm disappointed with what we've seen of the Haruchai thus far. They've allowed themselves to become pawns in a game that they could never understand, and I fear that will be their ultimate downfall.

Ah but SRD always twists and redeems.
So I expect to see the Ramen fail and the Haruchai prove true.

Or everything totally destroyed.
One or the other.
Or both.

[A Gunslinger]

Now they've turned the Land into a place that never would have inspired their ancestors to make a Vow.

Well said. I'm disappointed with what we've seen of the Haruchai thus far. They've allowed themselves to become pawns in a game that they could never understand, and I fear that will be their ultimate downfall.

Ah but SRD always twists and redeems.
So I expect to see the Ramen fail and the Haruchai prove true.

Or everything totally destroyed.
One or the other.
Or both.

With the Laws of death and time broken, I would not be suprised to see Bannor himself come back and let the Haruchsi in on their mistake...Bannor style that is.

[Buckarama]

Now that would be cool!

[Fist and Faith]

Yes, it would be awesome to see Bannor show up and kick all their asses!!

But largely because of their own perceived failure in upholding that vow I think.

Yes, but that because their Vow was flawed. The Ramen serve. Period. They don't question or second-guess the will of the Ranyhyn. They don't presume to say that what they - the Ramen - want for the Ranyhyn is more important than what the Ranyhyn want for the Ranyhyn. They obey the will of the Ranyhyn, simply and utterly.

That may be what the Haruchai had in mind when they took the Vow, but, if so, they haven't done it since the Ritual of Desecration. When the New Lords came along, the Bloodguard figured they were supposed to keep the Lords alive by any means, rather than serving them purely. They withheld information, figuring it was too dangerous for the Lords. How ironic that they were so taken with these people of power that they swore this extraordinary Vow, but then decided these people should not have access to power.

And when Foul forced the three to serve him, the rest abandoned the Vow, rather than seeing, like the Ramen always have, that what they have been serving is more important than their own ego. They didn't realize that they had gone from serving to controlling. If you want, you can serve anything perfectly; you cannot control anything perfectly.

And now, the Masters.

[drew]

Now they've turned the Land into a place that never would have inspired their ancestors to make a Vow.

Well said. I'm disappointed with what we've seen of the Haruchai thus far. They've allowed themselves to become pawns in a game that they could never understand, and I fear that will be their ultimate downfall.

Foul even said that they serve him, though they don't realize.

I feel that Stave will end up being not just an outcast among the Masters, but a hero to the remainder of the Haruchai

[Avatar]

But largely because of their own perceived failure in upholding that vow I think.

Yes, but that because their Vow was flawed. The Ramen serve. Period.

Perhaps. But the Haruchai saw the price of pure unquestioning service in the enactment of the Ritual of Desecration. They did obey unquestioningly, even when Kevin ordered them to safety, they obeyed him.

How could they be expected to repeat their mistake...how could they be expected to shoulder responsibility for another Desecration?

Unquestioning obediance is a bad thing. And perhaps, as HLT suggests, it will be the undoing of the Ramen themselves in the end.

No, I sympathise too easily with the Haruchai's predicament. Their assumption of responsibility for their perceived failure led inevitably to becoming the Masters I think.

--A

[Fist and Faith]

"Perceived failure" is the key. Their "devotion" has never been less than the Ramen's; their goal is the problem. They failed because they attempted something that cannot be accomplished. Becoming the Masters is the most extreme step they could take in their attempts, and even it cannot accomplish their goal. As has been said in RotE, they are incapable of standing alone against Corruption and the Ravers, yet they have ensured that they are alone against them.

And, of course, there's the moral question of not letting others make their own decisions.

[A Gunslinger]

"Perceived failure" is the key. Their "devotion" has never been less than the Ramen's; their goal is the problem. They failed because they attempted something that cannot be accomplished. Becoming the Masters is the most extreme step they could take in their attempts, and even it cannot accomplish their goal. As has been said in RotE, they are incapable of standing alone against Corruption and the Ravers, yet they have ensured that they are alone against them.

And, of course, there's the moral question of not letting others make their own decisions.

Which in and of itself IS corruption if'n you ask a simple ol' Gunslinger.

[Fist and Faith]

Indeed.

[Nom vs. Vain]

so it was the bloodgaurd all along... I knew it... lol

[PannionDude]

It feels to me like the Master's actions are intended to make a sacrifice of the Land, thus shielding the cosmos from LF.

With the Masters in charge no one is using Earthpower (sorta...ha) so the contribution of humanity to the world is 0. With earthpower users running around the contribution is wildly positive (Berek) or wildly negative (Elena). LF's contribution is always negative, he hurts the world less than a bad earthpower user, but he does hurt it.

Thus, with the Masters in command the world is ultimately doomed, but it will take the longest possible time. Essentially Foul has to do everything himself. Posessing people is useless (posessed civilians are not able to do squat, Masters no longer have the hubris to challenge him so in order to posess them he has to break them like Joan.) And, ultimately, when Foul has killed or enslaved everyone, he's still screwed. Lacking White Gold or Earthpower to summon more, he has simply pulled a Raistlin.

[A Gunslinger]

So you think the masters are simply running out the clock, eh? But to what end? If they do not have an answer, how do they hope to stop corruption at the last? ...especially if they mistrust anyone who has power or lore that can stop corruption?

[Fist and Faith]

I don't think they do have an answer. That's why I'm saying they're so freakin' stupid at this point. They know they can't fight Corruption. They can't simply not defeat Corruption, they can't even fight him. And they have done what they can to prevent anyone from learning of any means that can fight him. Their simplistic idea that "Earthpower has sometimes caused harm, so we must prevent its use" leads to ruin.

However, there's the possibility that they'll learn a better answer.

Spoiler

*cough cough* horserite *cough*

PannionDude (Welcome, btw ) has interesting ideas. But I disagree about how long it would take Foul to accomplish his ultimate goal. As it did between the 1st and 2nd Chrons, I think it took him this long to become so powerful again after his defeat. But now that he is this powerful again, I don't think the lack of the use of Earthpower in the Land would be much of a problem. I'll bet he could find a way to possess the Elohim, and have them try to yank the One Tree out of the ground, waking the Worm. The Blood of the Earth still exists, despite the difficulty in finding it, and a possessed person could commandthe Tree's destruction, which might wake the Worm. Kasreyn's lore was pretty powerful, too, and I imagine Foul could do some amazing things with it. Or any number of other things, whether we're already aware of them or not.