Thus Spoke Zarathustra

[Avatar]

Good post. Of course as you know, I believe that our only morality comes from ourselves. On the other hand, I don't find much problem in avoiding pain or displeasure. Of course, I'll agree that to be ruled by the motivator is always a bad thing, no matter what it is.

I should perhaps have amplified by calling them objectivist moral claims.

While there's nothing wrong with suffering, I think it's time enough to suffer when you have no other choice. And while people may not be ruled by pain-avoidance, there is still no need that I can see to participate in causing pain either.

--A

[Zarathustra]

Well, you're perfectly free to choose those values that are important to you. I certainly don't want to cause unnecessary pain either, though I'm perhaps a bit callous in telling people what I think despite how it will make them feel. To me, it's a higher level of respect to treat someone as if they are strong enough to take straight talk, rather than assume they are too timid to hear it. And I certainly don't want anyone to hold back on my account.

But perhaps you are talking about physical pain--and I agree, there's no point in actively causing suffering (though spanking comes to mind . . . as well as coercive interrogation for terrorists . . . )

I do plenty of pain-avoidance myself. I don't walk out into traffic. But at the same time, don't people who are scared to get a scratch kind of annoy you? People who won't participate in certain activities because there's a slight chance that they might get an injury? I'm talking about not going camping because you might get a snakebite, or not playing football because you might twist an ankle. Simply avoiding unnecessary pain makes sense--that's rational. But to allow your freedom to be restricted by refraining from doing things you'd otherwise like to do . . . that's no way for a sentient creature to express its being.

[Lord Mhoram]

Hence Nietzsche's perhaps idealistic admiration for the ancient Greek ideas about courage, strength, and pride. (Regarding his disdain for the Golden Rule, etc.)

[Avatar]

Haha, yeah, I was talking about physical pain. But I'll include unneccessary mental/emotional pain too. But sometimes that's just not possible.

Me, I like life to be easy. But then, I'm lazy.

--A

[lucimay]

i'm not there yet LM. i'm just at Beyond Good and Evil.

i don't find it difficult reading and in fact, i wish i'd read more of it before the exam tonight...it would have gone well with the Camus (myth of sisyphus) and the other books we were examining. (heart of darkness, all quiet on the western front, and notes from the underground, as i'm sure you're all tired of hearing. heh)

and i AM looking forward to The Rebel before continuing with Nietzsche but i do plan to read TSZ.

and nice summarizing Malik.

[hierachy]

I don't really like Nietzsche.

[Avatar]

*shrug* I found he took a bit of getting into...didn't like him much myself at first, and as it is, like some bits more than others.

--A