What is it you believe?

Free discussion of anything human or divine ~ Philosophy, Religion and Spirituality

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Xar
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Post by Xar »

spacemonkey wrote:Further down…………. My Dad and I parted ways that were not of the best circumstances, in anger. He died before we could patch things up with each other, I never saw him alive again after that day. After his funeral I went home, brokenhearted, still confused. I had so many questions that only he could answer. There always seemed to be Time, in which we could talk. There was nothing further from the truth. Some three days later, while I was asleep, Dad came to me and talked, talked about all that I needed answers for. I asked him why, why did you leave before we could set things right? His response was simple. “ My boys no longer needed me. You guys grew up. I always told you kids I was living on borrowed time. My time is up. Your time is just beginning, you have much still to do.” Many other things were discussed for three nights, there was no doubt this was my Dad. He further told me, “You can still come and see me, if you really want to, in your dreams.” This also proved true, about a year later I was lonesome for Dad and went to sleep. Sure enough, I found him, in his house with people that I have not seen since I was very small. I knew all of them, they all greeted me warmly and told me Dad was upstairs. I went upstairs and there was Dad, sitting and having the time of his after-life. He said with much joy,” See, I told you guys he would find me! Come and sit son, let’s talk……” This didn’t bother me, it felt natural. I still called my younger brother about all of this, thinking maybe I was going crazy. He broke down and cried on the phone. My brother told me that what I had just told him Dad had written in a letter and left in his old car that my brother had only found that afternoon. It was near verbatim, I still see Dad every now and then.
While I've known some people who would define this kind of experiences nothing more than your mind's unconscious creation of a dream construct, triggered by a powerful enough wish to see your loved one, I really doubt this is the case. See, I've also had similar experiences in the past.

When I was 10, my grandfather died of Alzheimer's Disease. I had barely known him, since the disease had already taken its toll by the time I was capable of understanding a bit more - I only barely remember my grandfather as a healthy man, and even then the memories are foggy and distant. I remember him mostly, if not only as an old man who had increasingly long spells of "madness" (or so I thought at the time) and once - when I was 7 - became violent and almost beat my 3-year-old brother up before the hospital could be called and somebody could restrain him. For this and other reasons (both he and my grandmother were... not cold, i suppose, but more distant, not as loving as my other grandparents), I never really knew him, and much less had a relationship with him, by the time he died. When he died, I wasn't even affected too much, especially since he was my first relative to die during my lifetime; I knew it was a bad thing, and I was sad for my father, my grandmother and my aunt, but truth be told, I didn't feel his death as a very painful event.
However, a month after his death, I had a strange dream which I remembered vividly upon awakening. I dreamed I and my family were in a car, driving on a road in the middle of nowhere. And I mean literally nowhere: apart from the single, straight line of asphalt, there was nothing around us except an endless brown plain. Suddenly, however, there was something: a bus stop, just next to our car. The car stopped, but neither of my parents, nor my brother seemed to notice; when I looked to the bus stop, there was my grandfather, and he didn't look sick, old or confused as he had been for most of my life, but healthy and... dignified, I would say. I remember he talked to me, asking me how things were going, how were my parents, especially my father, and how was my grandmother, among other things.
I was terrified. Even in the dream, if a dream it was, I felt this was really my grandfather, not a figment of my imagination. I was 10 by then - and the thought of talking with a ghost scared me. When the dream ended and I awoke, I remembered it perfectly, but didn't tell anybody about it, because I was too afraid to think about it. I thought perhaps it had just been a dream after all, a nightmare, and I'd forget it in time.
The month after, I had another dream. I was in a friend's house, playing with him, and made my way along a corridor and into a room that was, I knew it, the farthest room in the house. The real house didn't have that corridor or that room; but in the dream, both were there. The room was a child's room, with toys spread on the floor, and a large, dark wooden armoire; I started playing in that room, alone, when suddenly my grandfather appeared again, apparently emerging from behind the armoire. Again, he asked me how things were going, and how my father and grandmother were, and so on.
At that point, I remembered the first dream, and I knew that even though I realized I was dreaming, this was really my grandfather - again. I was so terrified then that I ran away, and screamed at him not to come back, because I was frightened. Last thing I remember from that dream was my grandfather's face, and he seemed surprised by my fear, but perhaps he understood.
I never again saw my grandfather in my dreams. Even now, 16 years later, I remember those two dreams vividly, and no matter how much people tell me it was just a dream, I keep having the strongest feeling it wasn't.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Zounds! Great post, spacemonkey! Thanks for sharing. It's nice to know such things when reading people's posts. Understanding what you are saying is easier when we know where you're coming from.

Av, you're the only other person I've ever heard use the term practical atheist. A quick search says the first time I ever called myself one on the Watch was on April 24, 2004, in this thread:
kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3369
I gave more of a definition in my Make Fist a Believer thread. For those who don't know (and care heh), basically, I am unable to conclude whether or not there is a creator. If there is one, it certainly hasn't made its wishes and/or requirements known to me. (Of course, I've also discussed the likelihood of me caring about any creator's wishes and/or requirements. :lol:) Therefore, none of my thoughts or actions are influenced by such considerations. I may be an agnostic, but, for all practical purposes, I am an atheist.
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
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Post by Waddley »

I don't know how I've missed this thread in the past. Oops. Everyone here has some great posts. Wish I had something as in depth to say, but I like to keep it simple.

I believe in people.

In humanity we have the ultimate capacity for good and evil, learning and creation and destruction. For inspiration, for stability, for faith I need to just look to man. It's all there for me.
"Let my inspiration flow in token rhyme, suggesting rhythm." -Robert Hunter
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Post by SoulQuest1970 »

Spacemonkey, I'd love to talk more. I am of Celtic and Cherokee backgrounds... as well as Catholic. I have some similar views.
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Post by spacemonkey »

Thanx for the encouragement everybody, there is great deal more,however, I don't wish to bore everybody to tears.... As far as it's worth, I haven't really discarded any faith I have come into contact with, there is good to be learned from all of them. I don't have any problem with anybody's faith or lack thereof, my experiences are strangely diverse and I have absorbed a great deal of all. My own near brushes with Death were VERY close, I have flatlined twice, from drowning, in the ocean. Since then I am a very strong swimmer, however, what I have seen will remain indelible upon my psyche forever....................... Thanx again everybody, as always comments are read and responded to......
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Post by Avatar »

Haha, maybe I stole the term from you Fist. :D Looks like the first time I ever used it on the Watch was in Dec 05.

We should plan a murder. Or start a religion. ;) (See...I can quote songs...well...musicians anyway. ;) )

Anyway, I think we've always had pretty similar views on the whole religion question. :D

Xar...I guess I'm one of those people who would say that something like that was probably a construct of memory, story, fantasy etc.

But it doesn't matter. It could indeed have been a...hell...whta do you want to call it? A visit from a dead family member? A message from the other side? Whatever. Of course it could have been. Neither of us will ever know, and perhaps that's a good thing.

But because you believe it was such, and treat it as such, and react to it/are affected by it as such, and experienced it as an event, then to all intents and purposes, it was an actual event.

There is no difference.

Me...well, I don't have a frame of reference for it. And its doubly strange because I don't have much of a frame of reference for dreaming either.

But I do know that in terms of the universe, in terms of cause and effect, real and not-real are merely points of view. And they're perspectives that are validated by the very act of perceiving them as such.

Uh...I'm rambling. Basically, for you it is real. For me it isn't. And both things are equally true. :lol:

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Post by spacemonkey »

Hey, Xar, from what you're saying it sound to me that your Grandfather possibly wanted to see you, or as I have learned, possibly to warn you of a bad path, he was benign, not angry. I personally think you'll see him again. No, I don't believe in dream constructs(What is this the Matrix?) You had very little info to even build something on that. Yes, listen harder, he may still yet still have something to say..........
There is one Law
that the Wild Magic
can Destroy or Maintain
for good or ill
BE TRUE!!!

Floating High But I'm Always Down......
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Avatar wrote:Anyway, I think we've always had pretty similar views on the whole religion question. :D
Heh. Yeah. As you know, I've very often, particularly in your first months here, been amazed by your posts, because I could have written them. But when I saw you use that term, I almost fell off my chair! :lol:

spacemonkey and Xar, I am with Av on all counts. *gasp*
-I have never had any experience remotely like what you two are describing.
-I cannot possibly say that, because it has never happened to me, it couldn't have happened to you, and was only your imagination.
-Humans are ruled by our feelings. That's not an insult to us, it's a definition. We are our feelings. Even if it was only your imagination, it was based on what is important to you. I've acted on much less significant - and often damned stupid - feelings quite often.
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
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Post by spacemonkey »

Hey Fist, first as a human we can distinguish between emotions, feelings, and what is (to me) a natural occurence. In my posting, I said that what my Dad said to me and what was written by my Dad over 1500 miles away and had no access to, was near verbatim. I feel that's stretching my own feelings as a point a little thin. My Dad and I were separated by his own alcoholism, his choice, not mine. To then recieve what I would refer to as proof in the pudding, is rather remarkable. Second, my own experiences are in truth, unique in many aspects. You may argue this next point, but my own convictions hold firm: I stand more attuned to what is viewed as impossible, improbable, and scientifically unprovable, however, to be attached to a different, possibly higher realm is sometimes viewed as sheer folly. My own personal aspects in this prove otherwise. As I stated before, I WILL NOT try to persuade or dissuade anyone from their own belief or unbelief in the afterlife. To me, the afterlife just is another stop along the way of life.
There is one Law
that the Wild Magic
can Destroy or Maintain
for good or ill
BE TRUE!!!

Floating High But I'm Always Down......
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Post by Avatar »

*shrug* Who knows what we're capable of, or what strange currents move the universe?

It's the kind of thing you have to experience personally to believe.

What I'm saying though is that it doesn't matter. The fact that you believe it/experienced it means that it is real, regardless of what I think of it, regardless of whether I never have such an experience. It's only us who bestow value on our experiences.

Fist, ;) :lol:

--A
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Post by spacemonkey »

Ah, here I will bow to this wisdom!!! ;) ;)
There is one Law
that the Wild Magic
can Destroy or Maintain
for good or ill
BE TRUE!!!

Floating High But I'm Always Down......
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Post by Avatar »

:LOLS: Now that's the kind of post I like to see most of all. ;)

--A
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Post by spacemonkey »

Knowing you Av, that's NOT a surprise!!! ;) :LOLS:
There is one Law
that the Wild Magic
can Destroy or Maintain
for good or ill
BE TRUE!!!

Floating High But I'm Always Down......
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Post by hamako »

my opinions on faith and belief have mellowed abit in the last year or two, not least affected by the death of my mum.

I have an ambiguous relationship with religous concepts. I simply don't know what there is beyond the mortal coil, none of us do and to dismiss or fundamentally believe a creed is a little presumptious and possibly arrogant.

What I do believe is that the Christian/Jewish god is not for me and I don't see how it can be right. The concept of these religions seems to be purely focused on controlling the populous in times where information, communication was low and the ruling class/establishment was very powerful. After all , there's nothing more powerful that convicing people that is they don't pursue a particular code you are damned to eternal hell.

I was raised a Catholic, have a free church pastor as a father, have studied theology so believe I have a fair knowledge.

Catholicism - sorry, but there are some things here that cannot be right. Papal decrees for instance: I'm married but if I use a condom I'm sinning. Eh? But on the other hand if I withdraw, I'm OK. RUbbish. Say I get HIV from a blood transfusion and use a condom, still sinning? Pathetic.

I'm raised in an isolated tribe in africa and i have little exposure to christianity - damned to hell?

Sex before marriage - same tribe- what;s the score there? What about secular marriages- are they sinners? Presumably. Ridiculous.

NO, there's far too much emphasis on human control in the rituals and laws of organised religion for me. No compassionate god would demand recognition and worship - isn't that a little too human, too conceited?

When my Mum died, I really thought that in such extremis, I'd get some inkling of whether there was anything out there, a god, an afterlife, whatever. I thought I might feel something otherwordly. There was, and has been absolutely nothing. This doesn't make me sad, it just is.

Is there anything out there? Who knows, but we'll all find out one day that's for sure.

Who's to say the the Bible is more accurate than the Quran? Who's right? HOW do you know?

And George Bush's version of Christianity does the whole faith no favours whatsoever.
He came dancing across the water...what a killer...
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Post by Warmark »

Good Post. :thumbsup:
But if you're all about the destination, then take a fucking flight.
We're going nowhere slowly, but we're seeing all the sights.
And we're definitely going to hell, but we'll have all the best stories to tell.


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Post by spacemonkey »

Agreed, Hamako, one of the very reasons I stepped away from the strict so called bible interpretations by many churches. Also, good point on the idea that Bush isn't doing any favors for the christian right wingers. I won't go into more detail on that because then it would belong in the 'Tank. I went back to the faith of my Irish ancestors, I'm Pagan, somewhat Wiccan as well. I left the whole dogmatic view of religion behind. I embraced a faith that is right for ME. Your views I can respect as well, and still maintain my own. The premise of the Wiccan faith is "Harm none, seek to bind only." "Blessed Be." There are many more, but that's the greatest of them all. I hope your path steers you correctly in your jouney here in Life. Blessings of the Goddess be with you......... :lol: ;)
There is one Law
that the Wild Magic
can Destroy or Maintain
for good or ill
BE TRUE!!!

Floating High But I'm Always Down......
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Post by rusmeister »

I really sympathize, hamako - I lost my father this year.

The one thing I would say though, is that it is possible that what you've presented as Christian teaching...isn't necessarily Christian teaching. More accurately, it doesn't reflect mature theological understanding of what they're saying. If that is so, then it follows that the arguments can be straw man arguments. Please forgive me, I don't mean to offend, but what you've said lists a number of reasons I walked away from the Baptists when I became an adult and joined the Navy. (I then spent the following 20 years as an agnostic, which is a very convenient faith, as you can live however you please.) I later learned that my understanding of faith was a 'sunday school', or as I like to say, a 'second-grader's' version of Christianity. By that I mean what we (those raised as Christians) absorb in church as children and from believing parents, without really understanding, and as in my case, when we are free of home, we also free ourselves from church and faith. We don't seek further understanding - we think we understand enough. From that child-ish perspective of theology, it does indeed look like lists of rules or be damned, it makes God out to be a selfish sadist and it can well appear, as you said to have an emphasis on human control.

I wonder if you've read (as an adult) G.K. Chesterton or C.S. Lewis's works? You ask how I know, and it would save several pages of posting if you have read Chesterton's 'Orthodoxy' or 'The Everlasting Man' (available free online) or Lewis's 'Mere Christianity' (under copyright - sorry!). If not, I'll say in brief that if you accept logic and common sense, that it is possible to recognize the existence of objective truth, and that some can indeed be right, and others wrong (and all sincere, at that). if that is so, then you have to embark on the path of figuring out who is right. All I'll say is that it is possible to arrive at the answer. (Well, I'll go a little further and say that Lewis narrows it down to Christianity or Hinduism.)

Oh, yes, you are soooo right about Bush.

Oh, and by the way, Orthodox Christians believe that we can pray for the dead. We don't know what comfort those prayers provide for souls that have passed, only that somehow they do so.
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Post by spacemonkey »

That's unusual coming from Lewis of all people......Hinduism is another form of Paganism, a Neo-Paganism, a later, more recent version. Lewis I found to be rather tedious, seemed to be talking in circles. Lewis's other works, The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe, for example, are seriously laden with Paganistic symbolism, and Paganistic values. Which I found even more amusing for the simple fact many "Fundies" allowed their children to see the movie without so much as a blink. Harry Potter, OH, NO!!!! IMHO, it shows just how little they really truly know. Sorry for both of your losses though, I will ask the Goddess for her blessings for your families and yourselves as well. I know intimately the pain of that loss of your father, mine was painful at first. Until I realized that Dad was much happier where he is. Blessed Be!!! Blessings of the Goddess upon you and yours.

Peace and Love,
spacemonkey......
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Post by Avatar »

Hamako, sorry to hear about your mother, but a pleasure to see you back nonetheless.

And Rusmeister, welcome to the Close. Always nice to have another participant. :D

Personally, I don't believe that there is such a thing as objective truth when it comes to philosophy, morality, faith, things like that.

Any answer you arrive at has as much chance of being objectively true as any other answer. And if all answers are equally true for the perceiver, then it renders the entire issue moot, doesn't it? :lol:

Oh, one thing though Hamako, I believe that the Christians, (or at least the Catholics), not sure about the Protestants, do have an exception for those isolated African tribes, or people who were around before Jesus...IIRC, if you've never heard of Jesus, you can get in based on your actions in life. I.e. if you lived a good life in terms of being kind, honest, all that.

But if you'd ever heard the "message" then you were outta luck.

(Yes, one of the many factors which puts me off christianity myself. :lol: Not that I'm opposed to some of the teachings, it's just the applications thereof, (not the fault of the religion itself of course), but some of them on the other hand I'm strongly opposed to. ;)

--Avatar
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Post by hamako »

rus - thanks for the offer of prayers, but I can;t see how, if there's a merciful god at the end of it all, the dead would need our prayers. I rather think it'd be the other way round!

I appreciate what you're getting at with childlike understanding of religion etc, but my difficulties go a little further. It;s the whole concept of worship and the fundamental interpretation of the scriptures that are flawed. For example, Paul's writings are centrally and doctrinally important for Christianity. He was quote an extreme character. But for me it's fairly obvious that he had a very political perspective in what he preached. He's obviously a misogynist and was cautious not to upset the Romans - he never criticises them. James however (whom the Christian church omits from the scripture) had an entirely different take on things - his gospel is interesting. For me such disparities place fundamental baseline flaws in the whole thang.

If you are a Christian you can argue that you should take the New testament at it's word and be done with it. Any interpretation or deviation is inexplicable and stinks of changing the "facts" to suit an agenda whether that be modernisation or whatever. In this respect I have a far higher regard for Islam; their holy book is unaltered (even down to a comma) since it was written, apparently by god himself. If you have a holy book, I can't see how you can have any other way of treating it. Whereas the Bible was first officially compiled by James 1st, King of England in a highly political and multi agenda fashion.

ergo, I have no affinity to this type of religion.

I think the real challenge comes with how didi everything really start? What was there before the big bang, how did slef replicating molecules appear, what was there before all this? It's all too mind blowing to conceive really and a faith is one way of dealing with this.

But I'm not so up my own back end to say that I hvae the answer, or that a religion doesn't have the answer either. No, my standpoint is that religions in the main don't have a convincing enough answer. But then that I guess is where faith comes in. Faith to me is a little too much of a suspension of disbelief mechanism, a safe bet, just in case when I die there is a big fella with a book of judgement!

What I can also say is I find hardcore christians alarming. I just think they've been done, got it all wrong. And I don't think a gos would want all that really, surely he'd be above it all?

I look around the streets of England though and think sometimes a little biblical wrath, sea of fire or something would do society a bit of a favour, clear some of the dross out :wink:

Agnosticism - perhaps it's a cop out, but I look at it like this: I dont accept that when it comes to spirituality, someone else knows better than each individual. A relationship with a god surely is entirely personal and no-one knows anything about anyone else's said relationship. Accordingly they can't really comment. If there is anything else out there, it's for me to find it, or it to find me; I'll see what happens.

There's a few things I see that are worthy of a degree of worship and veneration:

a beautiful woman
a fine malt whisky (Scottish of course)
a decent guitar solo
a good hot curry

:lol:

Avatar - cheers, you may notice I have mellowed.....
He came dancing across the water...what a killer...
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