For Those That Hate Milos Taverner

[Usivius]

I agree with drew. i stated it often in my summaries of the books, that I thought Angus was treated too heroic. I agree with the whole 'redemption' thing, but thought he was treated too softly.

[Revan]

Indeed... your thinking is curious...

Angus feared being trapped in the crib the most, and he gets all choice and volition robbed from him... he is made to endure eating burning fags and eat Milos' excrement, is deduced to less than a human...

No... I don't think he got off lightly... in his instance, some might view he also got what he deserved when he was first made into a cyborb... after all the crap he gave people over the years... and after he robbed Morn of her freedom as well...

I think, that were any of in Angus' position in book two, three and four, we would have been driven mad. It's hard to stand up to the kind of crap he went through.

[Usivius]

I am not disputing the 'crap' he went through in the early part of being a cyborg. It was horrendous. But by the end he is given the holy grail of space ships, info, and a bounty of other goodies in Holt's ship, not to mention his utter and (nearly) complete freedom. In my view, he never really improves that much as a person. Of course there is no way at all to prove any onf this, but it would be interesting to know what Angus would make of his life afterwards? Would he run the straight and narrow, become a good citizen? Or would he be off on his old tricks, dealing with criminals, involving himself in shady deals, etc. I mean the man has to live somehow? What will he do with his life after the last book? I guess that was the element left hanging that made the issue unresolved for me. We get a sense of Morn will be like, Hashi, and many others, but Angus?... dunno.

[I'm Murrin]

I think that's the idea. Angus was terrible, and he got punished for it when he was welded - by the time he is released, the crimes and the punishment could probably be considered fairly even, so he's left with a clean slate, and new knowledge of the kind of heroics and strength people are capable of (through watching Morn). The story ends with him given a new beginning, and we're left to speculate as to whether he'll do the right thing.

[Usivius]

good point.

[Revan]

Not all pirates are bad people... so even if Angus does go back to becoming a criminal... doesn't mean he is bad. Things aren't as black and white as that.... Mikka, Vector, Ciro, and Sib were all criminals (and they were, no matter how you argue) does that automatically mean they are bad?

And why do you have to deal with the Amnion to be a Pirate, there is bound to be what you might consider an 'instellar black market' in the Gap universe...

And Angus won't deal with the Amnion... if you remember what he said to Holt:

"Vestabule cursed me, can you believe it?" The stranger spoke in a cruel drawl, "threatened to 'destroy my DNA', but I guess he didn't think I would end up in a ship like this, just full of interesting secrets.
And since I can't make any deals with Forbidden space, I don't see any reason why I shouldn't do what Dios wants."

No, that isn't an exact quote, I just copied it from my memories, but the general point is there.


Ragardless, Angus just can't go off away from human space completely, he'd have to refuel his ship, restock supplies... so he does end up some where in human space in the future; not earth though... maybe one of the distant stations. Terminus maybe.

[Usivius]

you copied that from your memory?!
Jeez!
(using a Darth Vader voice) Impressive...

[drew]

Yeah, but don't forget, Angus didn't just do bad stuff to Morn...he bombed an entire mining camp at the beggining of TRS, and what about the 28 people he sold to the Amnion?
He was turned into the Cyborg, and was unable to controll himself for what, a few weeks?--how long did all those people have to suffer?

[Sorus]

Angus was a very different person by the end of the series, and as much as I would like to believe that he was truly (permanently?) changed, the simple fact is that he had been a victim more than once before, and it did not make him a nicer person.

How many characters became so defined by their various addictions or obsessions that they literally came to depend on the very thing they despised? The theme of revenge is so prevalent in the series, though admittedly most if not all of the people Angus would seek vengeance on are dead.

Did he get what he deserved? I've given that a lot of thought, and I really can't answer one way or the other.

[Revan]

Perhaps that is because it is a hard question... everyone has a different opinion on whether Angus, or the other characters got what they deserved... therefore it is impossible to come up with one answer that we can all agree on.

I mean true justice is very rare, and lets face facts, where some people would see justice as the right way to do things, to judge actions, others would disagree, thinking that you need to look closer at the situation. It is because of the fact that no-one has the exact opinion, matching the same reasons, of anyone else, that it is not really crediable to make this kind of judgment on Angus.

[Farm Ur-Ted]

I've got a question about Milos in Dark and Hung: when he and Angus were travelling to Thanatos Minor, did Milos make Angus give him a tongue bath? Or did he make him toss his salad? Or both?

[CovenantJr]

I read it as both. A particularly lovely passage. No pun intended.

[Farm Ur-Ted]

I read it as both. A particularly lovely passage. No pun intended.

Yes, it was quite tasty.

Edit: I meant the passage, not the passage. I'm sure that was quite nasty. Milos hadn't taken a bath in days.
No wonder Angus was eating so many cigarette butts afterwards. I would too.

[Loredoctor]

I wonder what the Amnion Mind/Union would have thought about Milos' 'tongue bath'.

"You did WHAT?!"

[CovenantJr]

I wonder what the Amnion Mind/Union would have thought about Milos' 'tongue bath'.

"You did WHAT?!"

Spoiler

"Conformity of OH DEAR GOD! Fuck that! Satisfy your own bloody requirements!"

[Loredoctor]