Best Use of Magic in a Fantasy Series

A place for anything *not* Donaldson.

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stonemaybe
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Post by stonemaybe »

What a wonderful thread! Malik23, you've got me burning some brain-rubber!

Personally (and probably VERY personally, read on...) I like the way JKR uses magic in the harry potter books. But that's probably only because I have a fascination with Latin, and all her spells' incantations are derived from that.

I loved SRD's use of mirrors in Mordant's Need. Mirrors are strange, but we take them for granted in the 'real' world.

I absolutely HATE ( :oops: TC included) where an author imbues a character with magic that is almost impossible to use - or only can be used at times of great stress. Brook's Shannara books would be a big one here. Also Belgariad.

I also like the Earthsea magic.

I'll be back with more after I wrack my brain......
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Post by CovenantJr »

DukkhaWaynhim wrote:Well, IIRC, Darksword entertained the what-if where Merlin and other magic-users of his kind left Earth a very long time ago, founded their own land, and then built a magical wall around this land that kept magical energy trapped within it, concentrating it for those inside and diluting it to near-nothingness for those outside.

All 'technology' that occurred within the land was innovation through magic, and technology through science and invention was either left to fall away, or actively opposed as illegal/forbidden.

All inhabitants of this land were mage-born of differing skills, degrees, and inclinations. That few that were non-magical were considered 'Dead' and were either killed at birth, imprisoned, or otherwise marginalized as unsavory.

The 'hero' of the story, Joram, who is the prince of the realm, is 'Dead' to magic, and the trilogy is his journey that ultimately ends in the destruction of the barrier that prevents the rest of the universe from experiencing magic, involving the (illegal/forbidden) forging of special metal into the Darksword, which is anti-magical in its properties.

The end of the story also involves army tanks brought in through some dimensional gate of some kind.

I remember not liking the way the trilogy ended, though the details of why are long lost to me...

dw
The first part of your post tempted me to read it, while the rest of the post made reading unniecessary. :P
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Post by Cameraman Jenn »

I remember that series. I remember thinking meh when I read it.
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Post by Avatar »

Ah yes, I didn't mean that technology was the foundation of the apparent magic. AS DW suggests, the magic was perfectly natural...there was only magic. Technology was the "Dark Art" whose practice was forbidden. Even something so simple as using a twig to lift the hot lid of a pot was considered using a tool, and thus forbidden.

The "Dead," those born without magic capabilities, were left exposed to die as babies.

Personally, I liked the ending, (which I won't spoil anymore ;) ). And now that I think of it, it had a distinctly "Donaldsonian" feel to it, unlike the usual easy read fantasy fare of Weiss & Hickman. It was distinctly darker, and Joram is in effect an anti-hero. (Actually, the series by Weiss alone, Star of the Guardians, is also notably darker than their combination writing. )

Malik, I can think of one story were the characters believed they had the power of magic, but where it was actually technology masquerading as magic. A short story called The Wall Around the World by Theodore R. Cogswell, appearing in a collection of his by the same name, published in 1962.

Exactly the kind of thing you were talking about.

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Post by lucimay »

Avatar wrote:Ah yes, I didn't mean that technology was the foundation of the apparent magic. AS DW suggests, the magic was perfectly natural...there was only magic. Technology was the "Dark Art" whose practice was forbidden. Even something so simple as using a twig to lift the hot lid of a pot was considered using a tool, and thus forbidden.

The "Dead," those born without magic capabilities, were left exposed to die as babies.

Personally, I liked the ending, (which I won't spoil anymore ;) ). And now that I think of it, it had a distinctly "Donaldsonian" feel to it, unlike the usual easy read fantasy fare of Weiss & Hickman. It was distinctly darker, and Joram is in effect an anti-hero. (Actually, the series by Weiss alone, Star of the Guardians, is also notably darker than their combination writing. )

Malik, I can think of one story were the characters believed they had the power of magic, but where it was actually technology masquerading as magic. A short story called The Wall Around the World by Theodore R. Cogswell, appearing in a collection of his by the same name, published in 1962.

Exactly the kind of thing you were talking about.

--A

i haven't read the rest of the pages Av but whatever you're talking about sounds interesting. technology as a dark art.

i thought Cail was eloquent about donaldson's magic. i did read that section. :thumbsup:

i remember a book i read years ago when i was a kid called The Flying Sorcerers that had technology sort of masquerading as magic.
they had an interpreter box that could interpret languages. but it did sort of imperfect translations and it told the actual magicians one character's name was " Isaac As a-shade-of-purple-gray." :lol:
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Post by Nav »

I've read very little fantasy beyond Donaldson, but I really liked the Imagery in Mordant's Need. The potential power is nearly limitless but the fact that it is dependent on something as fragile, awkward and difficult to construct as a mirror appeals to me. That something so powerful could be summoned by merely a word or a gesture doesn't sit right with me, I want my magic to be difficult to make and no amount of spiel about intense concentration and training is likely to convince me.

The idea that an imager might spend all that time an effort crafting a new mirror with little or no idea of what it might eventually show also appeals to me. I could imagine how the imager who made the mirror of that swamp felt when he translated the murky water for the first time.
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Post by High Lord Prothall »

Malik23 wrote:Hmmm. . . not quite what I was thinking when I read Avatar's post. Are there any fantasy series in which magic really isn't magic, but instead a form of technology which the people of the world don't know exists? Technology they manipulate, but don't understand? For instance, a world like Tolkien's where the Elves' powers really come from an intuitive, mental connection with, say, nanite swarms? Or something similar?

I'm talking about a series where there actually is nothing supernatural, nothing magical, and yet it looks just like magic because the technology is too advanced for its current users to recognize. A fantasy version of The Matrix, perhaps?
There's "Lord of Light" by Roger Zelazny. The science is not explained, and it has the feel of a fantasy novel with gods and demons, etc. Yet it is science fiction based on Clarke's third law "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
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Post by wayfriend »

... and would Gene Wolf's Book of the New Sun series qualify as a story in which tech is treated as magic?
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Post by [Syl] »

Yes. The miracle of Apu Panchua, for example. Pretty much every time the Claw is used (intentionally or not), though there isn't really any hard science behind that that I can remember, the explanation for it coming from Urth of the New Sun.

Long Sun would surely count, too. It's fairly obvious to us that the azath (if I'm not confusing a similar word with Erikson's), the theophanies, and possession by gods and such is due to tech, but for all they know, the floaters might as well be flying carpets.

I think the linguist in me likes Bakker's system the best, but for actual use, I'd have to go with Erikson. Patricia Mckillip deserves a mention, but as far as I can tell, there is no system. Alan Dean Foster's spellsinger magic was fun, even if just about all the songs were before my time.

Fine, and I'll say it: I like Jordan's system.
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Post by Caer Bombadil »

I thought the miracle of Apu-Punchao involved the intervention of Tzadkiel and/or the Hierodules on Severian's behalf.

IIRC there were a number of hints that the Claw of the Conciliator manipulated time; i.e. it was a sort of compact "time machine". When it healed or raised the dead, it returned the the person's tissues to a time before they were injured. I suppose the light it emitted was a by-product of Doing the Time Warp Again.

I guess the Claw would be another of the kinds of 'magic' to which Stonemaybe might object, as Sev couldn't seem to control it voluntarily.

The mirror teleportation techniques used by Father Inire (and Tzadkiel's Ship? and Hethor?) was another odd and subtle techno-magic I found intriguing in BoNS.

However, in Wolfe one can never rule out the possibility that something alive, or even some manifestation of divinity, might succeed in expressing itself thru 'tech.' That sort of phenomenon is a frequent theme in his work.

Speaking of Tolkien, I always did figure that such talismans as Feanor's products for better living, such as the palantiri and the Silmarils, actually could be considered some sort of ultrasubtle Clarkeian 'tech.' Even the Rings of Power seemed to be a sort of tech, even if they were powered by an infusion of Sauron's personal spirit essence. The Ruling Ring could be considered a kind of entheal technology capable of containing part of one of the Ainur.

Of course, magic that occurs essentially in a dream, e.g. the Matrix, could be considered 'cheating.' Presumably anything is possible in a dream, though one might not be incontrol of it. Here's another possible objection to Covenant, if you wish to grab that particular horn of the fundamental paradox.

Sometime back I started reading Jack Vance's The Dying Earth a little at a time. It seems to me that Vance's magic is supposed to be a very ancient discovery, solution, and and implementation of the ultimate unified field equations, whatever they turn out to be, such that in the latter days mastery of some part of this barely-understood lore makes one a powerful magician able to perform feats by manipulating spacetime. By the time of the stories, the unified field equations are remembered by the inhabitants as mostly 'canned' spells for such particular purposes as conjuring someone away, or inflicting a "dismal itch."
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Hell, it's even worse when you consider the magic of white gold. Apparently, its ONLY manifestation is white flame.
There was also an element of telekinesis (for lack of a better word) with wild magic. Instances where Covenant broke the bonds of Foamfollower in TPTP or Brinn in TWL come to mind.
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Of course, uncontrolled, wild, random energy would be expected to be essentially destructive and dissipative.
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Post by Avatar »

Syl wrote:Fine, and I'll say it: I like Jordan's system.
8O :lol: ;)

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Post by Peven »

i love the context of magic in Patricia McKillip's "Riddlemaster" trilogy and the whole concept of land-heirs and the connection they have with their realm.
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Post by jacob Raver, sinTempter »

I think the Star Wars films have done it best...TC magic is great, on all levels, but the wood and stone get trumped by the Lord's and the white gold, the Staff and I-Stone...(I gotta get me one of them - phenomenal cosmic green powers...in your ear! DC might wanna get in on it with Apple :mrgreen: )...I just eventually lose focus because of too many magic layerings... :mrgreen:
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Post by Zenlunatic »

Of course, the Earthpower rules, but since this forum is for "General" Fantasy/Sci Fi, I think Brandon Sanderson's use of Allomancy in the Mistborn books is pretty cool and different.
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Post by The Dreaming »

I *really* like the Magic in Carde's 7th son series. (I'm in the middle of the first book) Which reminds me of Mary Stewert's weird amalgum of historical fiction and fantasy in her (ever expanding) Merlin Trilogy.

It's not often I'm reading fantasy and "really" believing it's real.
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Post by MsMary »

Peven wrote:i love the context of magic in Patricia McKillip's "Riddlemaster" trilogy and the whole concept of land-heirs and the connection they have with their realm.
Agreed.

I also love the use of magic in Garth Nix's Abhorsen Trilogy.
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Dragonlance.
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Post by Mortice Root »

In the TV show Babylon 5, the concept of "technology percieved as magic" is addressed by the techno-mage characters. Not a main thrust of the show, but there in the periphery.
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Post by emotional leper »

:P

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Post by Mortice Root »

Well, it wasn't real science. :) But the idea was there.
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